Holy Cow! Major ST-Category shake-up proposed for 2012!

I don't understand why they don't just make a new class (ala STR) for this new stuff + the uncompetitive from ST. Then they could have STB (or whatever) with the new Mazda2, etc, and the leftover slow stuff, STC (or whatever) with the current ST cream (Civic, etc), and then STS, STX, STU, STR.

Honestly it would make more sense and they could bump the CRX down to STC so that STS can be RWD sports cars like originally designated (RX7, Miata, MR2, etc). STB would be competitive and fun (older, lighter vs newer, higher-HP, and heavier) and STC would be Spec Civic/CRX (see, I even named it ST Civic!).

wbjones wrote: which of them will now have a better chance of being competitive than they had before... when all the had to contend with were the Civics ?

I don't think that was the intention. It seems those cars were moved in an effort to eliminate any potential 'overdogs' in ST that would require somebody to go searching for some 15 year old, now obscure car to be competitive.

Ian F wrote:

wbjones wrote: which of them will now have a better chance of being competitive than they had before... when all the had to contend with were the Civics ?

I don't think that was the intention. It seems those cars were moved in an effort to eliminate any potential 'overdogs' in ST that would require somebody to go searching for some 15 year old, now obscure car to be competitive.

Oh i think there's still some out there. We'll have to wait and see what the all-inclusive car list comes out to be like.

"Doomed"? I doubt it. Hell, Id think about prepping the Elantra again. MS the ECU, intake, exhaust, koni inserts, 650lb rear springs, 550 fronts with 22mm rear bar and camber plates sitting on 225/45/15's.... car would be an absolute ball again. Shoot, that car on H&R's, on 225/45/16 RS-2's and a 19mm rear bar with intake and exhaust won the Regional STS championship (before becoming ST).

Luckily I no longer have to worry about it. They won't let C4's play in street tired classes so I get to play in R-comp classes on street tires in either SSM or BSP.

Ian F wrote: This is like deja vu... from three days ago... go read the other forum thread... seriously... there's a little more insight into the "why's" of the proposal by folks who have better knowledge than we do. Javelin, your classing structure is simply not realistic. Not now. Not tomorrow. Not ever. I'm not really disagreeing with you that the current system is bazaar, but we aren't starting from a blank slate here, and such comments make any of your other ideas lose validity. It's simply not going to happen, so get over it.

I deleted my classing structure post because it belongs in another thread, but NASA clean-sheeted a class system and they are doing JUST fine. I don't understand why people hate that idea so freaking much.

In reply to Javelin:

I kinda understand your point, but not completely.

The ruleset has always had a Nationals bias, but regions have the power to do anything they see fit for their members' enjoyment. A serious trip to the Nationals requires a big committment of time and money, regardless of the car or the class. And the people who influence those who make the rules are those with the biggest committment level.

If a Solo novice is discouraged by local competition, the region needs to find ways to mentor them and get them faster. If that doesn't work, it seems the problem isn't with the rules..........

Bobzilla wrote: "Doomed"? I doubt it. Hell, Id think about prepping the Elantra again. MS the ECU, intake, exhaust, koni inserts, 650lb rear springs, 550 fronts with 22mm rear bar and camber plates sitting on 225/45/15's.... car would be an absolute ball again. Shoot, that car on H&R's, on 225/45/16 RS-2's and a 19mm rear bar with intake and exhaust won the Regional STS championship (before becoming ST). Luckily I no longer have to worry about it. They won't let C4's play in street tired classes so I get to play in R-comp classes on street tires in either SSM or BSP.

I agree--the Elantra is safe (from being moved), IMO. I take it that you gave up on the Swift?

Javelin wrote: I deleted my classing structure post because it belongs in another thread, but NASA clean-sheeted a class system and they are doing JUST fine. I don't understand why people hate that idea so freaking much.

I don't. I think it's a great idea. Unfortunately, NASA still doesn't have the regional support and auto-x schedule that the SCCA does.

Bobzilla and celicahalftrack: It all depends on where the chips fall for the "allowed" cars AND the new allowed mods. If both of those cars stay in ST with the new Mazda2, etc, then yes, rock on. But what if they allow the LSD? Or disallow the ECU tuning? Or make the tire width 215 to accomodate the new cars?

Again, I like a shake up, just not this one. There's WAY too many details being left out and again, ruining the 2 most popular classes at once is just very, very odd. See my STB/STC post above...

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

ST_ZX2 wrote: The list of proposed STS cars (except fro the EF and maybe EG) will be doomed at the national level.

Yeah, it sucks, but aren't they doomed currently anyways?

Yes, which is a shame, because those are some nice, affordable sporty cars that make nice little autocrossers--all of them...and they are going to be pushed out to pasture.

Move the just EFs and maybe the EGs--keep the rest. I'd take my chances against an Integra and an ACR (aready showed well vs. Mike Occhipinti driving his old Neon, which was the last non-EF to trophy at Nationals).

oldsaw wrote: In reply to Javelin: I kinda understand your point, but not completely. The ruleset has always had a Nationals bias, but regions have the power to do anything they see fit for their members' enjoyment. A serious trip to the Nationals requires a big committment of time and money, regardless of the car or the class. And the people who influence those who make the rules are those with the biggest committment level. If a Solo novice is discouraged by local competition, the region needs to find ways to mentor them and get them faster. If that doesn't work, it seems the problem isn't with the rules..........

The problem is the rules though. Guys and girls who want to race their cars have modified them, period. That immediately kicks them out of Stock, or Street Tire (the most popular local classes, but that's another story) and into the only street tire category in all of the SCCA, ST. Right now ST, STS, and STX are fairly easy to compete in locally with the "wrong" cars as at full prep (but not Nationals-level) most of the cars are equal enough. That means this category is the most important to the SCCA, so they really need to keep more of an emphasis off of Nationals than usual (which is none) IMO.

IMO, if the proposal does go through, I would be in favor of the LSD allowance. A powerbox'ed TDI would be severely under-tired with 225's.

Javelin wrote: The problem *is* the rules though. Guys and girls who want to race their cars have modified them, period. That immediately kicks them out of Stock, or Street Tire (the most popular local classes, but that's another story) and into the *only* street tire category in all of the SCCA, ST. Right now ST, STS, and STX are fairly easy to compete in locally with the "wrong" cars as at full prep (but not Nationals-level) most of the cars are equal enough. That means this category is *the* most important to the SCCA, so they really need to keep more of an emphasis off of Nationals than usual (which is none) IMO.

Soooo, get back to us when you're a member of the STAC. Or when you're the regional Solo Chair - where your opinion has more weight and you can address the issues you deem important.

Javelin wrote: The problem *is* the rules though. Guys and girls who want to race their cars have modified them, period. That immediately kicks them out of Stock, or Street Tire (the most popular local classes, but that's another story) and into the *only* street tire category in all of the SCCA, ST. Right now ST, STS, and STX are fairly easy to compete in locally with the "wrong" cars as at full prep (but not Nationals-level) most of the cars are equal enough. That means this category is *the* most important to the SCCA, so they really need to keep more of an emphasis off of Nationals than usual (which is none) IMO.

Respectfully, I disagree. The problem is that a lot of people want rules suited to their cars. If you're hung up on trophies and results you're left with two choices:

a) Play (and win) by the rules
b) Deal with not winning in the car that you enjoy.

I'll take b. I've got two mid-pack nationals results to show for it. It's not the SCCA's fault that a built RX-7 is much faster than my Miata. In the meantime, I'll work on becoming a better driver and hopefully close some of the gap.

Javelin wrote: Bobzilla and celicahalftrack: It all depends on where the chips fall for the "allowed" cars AND the new allowed mods. If both of those cars stay in ST with the new Mazda2, etc, then yes, rock on. But what if they allow the LSD? Or disallow the ECU tuning? Or make the tire width 215 to accomodate the new cars? Again, I like a shake up, just not this one. There's WAY too many details being left out and again, ruining the 2 most popular classes at once is just very, very odd. See my STB/STC post above...

Keep in mind, this is not set in stone. This is the first proposal. That's why they want you to write those letters with your support, suggestions and comments. WRITE IT if you feel something should be changed.

Me.... I'm just gonna roll with my pushrods and big tires whereever they let me.

Tom Heath wrote:

Javelin wrote: The problem *is* the rules though. Guys and girls who want to race their cars have modified them, period. That immediately kicks them out of Stock, or Street Tire (the most popular local classes, but that's another story) and into the *only* street tire category in all of the SCCA, ST. Right now ST, STS, and STX are fairly easy to compete in locally with the "wrong" cars as at full prep (but not Nationals-level) most of the cars are equal enough. That means this category is *the* most important to the SCCA, so they really need to keep more of an emphasis off of Nationals than usual (which is none) IMO.

Respectfully, I disagree. The problem is that a lot of people want rules suited to their cars. If you're hung up on trophies and results you're left with two choices: a) Play (and win) by the rules b) Deal with not winning in the car that you enjoy. I'll take b. I've got two mid-pack nationals results to show for it. It's not the SCCA's fault that a built RX-7 is much faster than my Miata. In the meantime, I'll work on becoming a better driver and hopefully close some of the gap.

This. We start getting into the "EVERYONE TROPHIES" mentality. You remember all those t-ball games where no one loses? Wel, those kids are driving now.... and they want their trophy damnit. And here y'all thought that wasn't going to bite you in the butt!

Bobzilla wrote:

Tom Heath wrote:

Javelin wrote: The problem *is* the rules though. Guys and girls who want to race their cars have modified them, period. That immediately kicks them out of Stock, or Street Tire (the most popular local classes, but that's another story) and into the *only* street tire category in all of the SCCA, ST. Right now ST, STS, and STX are fairly easy to compete in locally with the "wrong" cars as at full prep (but not Nationals-level) most of the cars are equal enough. That means this category is *the* most important to the SCCA, so they really need to keep more of an emphasis off of Nationals than usual (which is none) IMO.

Respectfully, I disagree. The problem is that a lot of people want rules suited to their cars. If you're hung up on trophies and results you're left with two choices: a) Play (and win) by the rules b) Deal with not winning in the car that you enjoy. I'll take b. I've got two mid-pack nationals results to show for it. It's not the SCCA's fault that a built RX-7 is much faster than my Miata. In the meantime, I'll work on becoming a better driver and hopefully close some of the gap.

This. We start getting into the "EVERYONE TROPHIES" mentality. You remember all those t-ball games where no one loses? Wel, those kids are driving now.... and they want their trophy damnit. And here y'all thought that wasn't going to bite you in the butt!

Yeah, but you should not have one car that can dominate two (i.e. win Nationals) and compete competetively in the third class of an entire category either.

oldsaw wrote:

Javelin wrote: The problem *is* the rules though. Guys and girls who want to race their cars have modified them, period. That immediately kicks them out of Stock, or Street Tire (the most popular local classes, but that's another story) and into the *only* street tire category in all of the SCCA, ST. Right now ST, STS, and STX are fairly easy to compete in locally with the "wrong" cars as at full prep (but not Nationals-level) most of the cars are equal enough. That means this category is *the* most important to the SCCA, so they really need to keep more of an emphasis off of Nationals than usual (which is none) IMO.

Soooo, get back to us when you're a member of the STAC. Or when you're the regional Solo Chair - where your opinion has more weight and you can address the issues you deem important.

Wow. That just shows the prevailing "attitude" in the SCCA. Yeah, I'm not important because I'm not on the STAC or ever raced Nationals. Forget the 25+ Regional events, Instructing in the novice schools and Street Survival Schools, writing articles for the Regional Newsletter, or helping setup and tear down and nearly every event. Yeah, us little guys don't matter, we should just pack our bags and go home.

THen find a better mousetrap. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You want to beat the EF, find that car. It's not the EF people's fault that they started with a great chassis, tons of options on tuning and sound engineering to build from.

Javelin wrote: Again, I like a shake up, just not this one. There's WAY too many details being left out and again, ruining the 2 most popular classes at once is just very, very odd. See my STB/STC post above...

Once again your train of thought jumps to erroneous conclusions. Please explain how they are going to ruin ST and STS.

As I see it you have two classes, ST and STS, which run very similar times. You also have three cars (Civic, CRX, Miata) in those classes that run very similar times. If you merge the classes together you get one big ol class where everyone is still running very similar times.

Now STS is one big happy class and while ST is not what it used to be, it is opened up for a bunch of other, potentially newer, cars to be competitive. This is a good thing for anyone who wants to run in a street tire class but doesn't have a 22yr old Civic and the guy's who have Civic's and already dumped a bunch of time/money into their cars still have a competitive place to play. Same for the CRX and Miata guys.

Tom Heath wrote: Respectfully, I disagree. The problem is that a lot of people want rules suited to their cars. If you're hung up on trophies and results you're left with two choices: a) Play (and win) by the rules b) Deal with not winning in the car that you enjoy. I'll take b. I've got two mid-pack nationals results to show for it. It's not the SCCA's fault that a built RX-7 is much faster than my Miata. In the meantime, I'll work on becoming a better driver and hopefully close some of the gap.

I think we're agreeing from different ends of the conversation. I am perfectly OK with options A and B (duh, I ran a carb'd RX-7 in STS and am building a Javelin with no regards to the rules that will end up in CP). What I'm getting at is the "entry-level" category (and yes, that is ST thanks to r-comps in Stock) should be the most liberal/newcomers friendly place to play.

By proposing a shake-up with MORE mods and LESS classes (realistically), it makes it harder, not easier, to compete in ST. (Personally I'd like the more mods ST class, even with my current car, but I see LSD's and piggybacks pricing the average joe way out of this category).

Soma007 wrote:

Javelin wrote: Again, I like a shake up, just not this one. There's WAY too many details being left out and again, ruining the 2 most popular classes at once is just very, very odd. See my STB/STC post above...

Once again your train of thought jumps to erroneous conclusions. Please explain how they are going to ruin ST and STS. As I see it you have two classes, ST and STS, which run very similar times. You also have three cars (Civic, CRX, Miata) in those classes that run very similar times. If you merge the classes together you get one big ol class where everyone is still running very similar times. Now STS is one big happy class and while ST is not what it used to be, it is opened up for a bunch of other, potentially newer, cars to be competitive. This is a good thing for anyone who wants to run in a street tire class but doesn't have a 22yr old Civic and the guy's who have Civic's and already dumped a bunch of time/money into their cars still have a competitive place to play. Same for the CRX and Miata guys.

Read what I wrote... Right now ST is the biggest class and is basically 1 car, the Civic. STS is the 2nd biggest class and has a lot more available to it (the Miata and CRX as you pointed out). I'm A-OK with those 3 going into the same class (though I realize my STB/STC didn't do that, I got side-tracked) and allowing the "slower" cars a chance at their own class (Escort, Celica, Elantra, etc). The problem is in this proposal that newly opened ST class would then ALSO have to suffer the new cars (Mazda2, Fiesta, Fit, Yaris, etc). I'm saying the new stuff should get their own class, and then the real ST can come out and play and be the spot for new people to the sport to get in while the curmudgeons can play in STS with the Civic/CRX/Miata.

Bobzilla wrote: THen find a better mousetrap. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You want to beat the EF, find that car. It's not the EF people's fault that they started with a great chassis, tons of options on tuning and sound engineering to build from.

Maybe you missed it above--but what happened to your mousetrap...the GT Swift?

Javelin wrote: Wow. That just shows the prevailing "attitude" in the SCCA. Yeah, I'm not important because I'm not on the STAC or ever raced Nationals. Forget the 25+ Regional events, Instructing in the novice schools and Street Survival Schools, writing articles for the Regional Newsletter, or helping setup and tear down and nearly every event. Yeah, us little guys don't matter, we should just pack our bags and go home.

Again with the insane jumping to conclusions. I'm sure you're a valued member of your particular region. But that region is part of a bigger organization that generally sets the rules for our little sport. If you don't like the rules then there is a process for getting them changed. Have you tried writing a letter to the STAC? Venting your frustrations on this little corner of the internet is not going to get you anywhere no matter how right you think you are.

BTW if the SCCA "attitude" bothers you so much then don't associate with them/us. Join NASA, form your own autocross club, take up golf, or whatever.