Honda and Nissan reported in merger talks

Appleseed said:

Remember when Daimler merged (bought) Chrysler in the later 90s? That was awesome, wasn't it?

Exactly what I was thinking of. I see what Nissan (Chrysler) gets out of it but don't see what Honda (Mercedes) gets.

Any chance Honda is looking to gain Nissans North American production capacity in anticipation of tariffs?

Appleseed said:

Remember when Daimler merged (bought) Chrysler in the later 90s? That was awesome, wasn't it?

I still hate Mercedes because of that. My favorite parts were when Mercedes transferred a huge pile of cash straight from Chrysler to Daimler, forced Chrysler to use Mercedes part designs, and then back charged them for the engineering.

No Time said:

Any chance Honda is looking to gain Nissans North American production capacity in anticipation of tariffs?

Honda has pretty good NA capacity in Ohio already. 

dculberson said:

Appleseed said:

Remember when Daimler merged (bought) Chrysler in the later 90s? That was awesome, wasn't it?

Exactly what I was thinking of. I see what Nissan (Chrysler) gets out of it but don't see what Honda (Mercedes) gets.

Honda gets to eliminate a significant competitor. Curious what happens to Nissan partners Renault and Mitsubishi.

In reply to J.A. Ackley :

Now that you mention it, I'm kind of surprised it's Nissan, not Mitsubishi, under the threat of a merger.

I see that there are a couple news articles where Honda and Nissan are confirming that they're going to be trying to work together, but they're strongly denying that there's any chance of a merger.

Which roughly translates to: There will definitely be a merger.

What's in it for Honda?

Honda has been heavily investing in BEV tech lately. Their two current offerings are basically GM platform cars, so I can see this as a way to fast track their plans to add more BEV tech under their own roof. Nissan is a mess, but they have a history of having good ideas and some really great cars, but have been horribly mismanaged in the past 20-25 years or so, leading to the situation they are in. I can see this working somehow. 

The Japanese government has a fair amount of control over Japanese industry through their "administrative guidance." I have to wonder if this is the Japanese keeping their brands from being sold off to the highest bidder (read Chinese). There has always been some animosity between them. Maybe Honda has the capability to absorb Nissan and they got their marching orders from on high. 

I am assuming this is a net negative for Honda, but that hasn't stopped their post-Soichiro leadership team in any of their previous blunders.  (Only hybrids moving forward, auto-only NSX, killing V10/V8 programs, etc., etc.)

Fire the business leaders, put the engineers back in charge, and let Honda be Honda: slightly different, super driver focused, and super reliable. 

1988RedT2 said:

I've always held Honda in high regard.  Merging/acquiring Nissan will certainly drag them down.

yeah... after 11 years with them I do not. 

Flynlow said:

I am assuming this is a net negative for Honda, but that hasn't stopped their post-Soichiro leadership team in any of their previous blunders.  (Only hybrids moving forward, auto-only NSX, killing V10/V8 programs, etc., etc.)

Fire the business leaders, put the engineers back in charge, and let Honda be Honda: slightly different, super driver focused, and super reliable. 

It doesn't even have to be an engineer, just someone that doesn't think cars are dishwashers.

I'm still bullish on Nissan turning things around but they're making all the wrong moves with the pricing of the 400z and the 2025 Patrol. That market is rapidly collapsing under its own weight.

According to an article on the autopian, Honda's interest in Nissan is less about Honda wanting Nissan and more about Honda not wanting Foxconn to get Nissan.

Pretty early for an April Fools Day joke, Honda.  Now stop messing around, and get back to work on that new Prelude!

This whole thing feels like Nissan desperately needs a place to crash for a few days and Honda is reluctantly offering its couch. 

Going from 6th to 4th as largest manufacturer in the US....Nissan you could probably cut most models, but what you do with Infiniti would be interesting. 

Toyman! said:

The Japanese government has a fair amount of control over Japanese industry through their "administrative guidance." I have to wonder if this is the Japanese keeping their brands from being sold off to the highest bidder (read Chinese). There has always been some animosity between them. Maybe Honda has the capability to absorb Nissan and they got their marching orders from on high. 

Isn't that why Nissan merged with Prince?

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Nissan Motor Co., Ltd. ("Nissan") and Honda Motor Co., Ltd. ("Honda") have signed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) to start discussions and considerations toward a business integration between the two companies through the establishment of a joint holding company.

The0retical said:

Flynlow said:

I am assuming this is a net negative for Honda, but that hasn't stopped their post-Soichiro leadership team in any of their previous blunders.  (Only hybrids moving forward, auto-only NSX, killing V10/V8 programs, etc., etc.)

Fire the business leaders, put the engineers back in charge, and let Honda be Honda: slightly different, super driver focused, and super reliable. 

It doesn't even have to be an engineer, just someone that doesn't think cars are dishwashers.

I'm still bullish on Nissan turning things around but they're making all the wrong moves with the pricing of the 400z and the 2025 Patrol. That market is rapidly collapsing under its own weight.

I think a problem with that is the vast majority of the buying public look at cars as dishwashers (appliances). 

My fiance used to hate large vehicles, pines for another Smart Car that we got rid of years ago, etc. Now? She absolutely LOVES her '23 CX-5. Drives great, she can see the road better, great stereo, etc. 

She likes my BRZ, she doesn't like getting in and out of it. 

I wonder what part the Japanese government will play in this merger , 

They pushed the merger to keep Nissan still Japanese owned ,  

z31maniac said:

The0retical said:

Flynlow said:

I am assuming this is a net negative for Honda, but that hasn't stopped their post-Soichiro leadership team in any of their previous blunders.  (Only hybrids moving forward, auto-only NSX, killing V10/V8 programs, etc., etc.)

Fire the business leaders, put the engineers back in charge, and let Honda be Honda: slightly different, super driver focused, and super reliable. 

It doesn't even have to be an engineer, just someone that doesn't think cars are dishwashers.

I'm still bullish on Nissan turning things around but they're making all the wrong moves with the pricing of the 400z and the 2025 Patrol. That market is rapidly collapsing under its own weight.

I think a problem with that is the vast majority of the buying public look at cars as dishwashers (appliances). 

My fiance used to hate large vehicles, pines for another Smart Car that we got rid of years ago, etc. Now? She absolutely LOVES her '23 CX-5. Drives great, she can see the road better, great stereo, etc. 

She likes my BRZ, she doesn't like getting in and out of it. 

It's fine for the general public to look at cars as appliances. Most people want to get up every day, stumble out to the car with coffee in hand, turn the key and have it take them to work. In that way modern cars are absolute marvels of engineering.

The problem is when the CEO of a car company looks at cars like that it leads to decisions that get you to where Nissan is today. An appliance isn't something you experience, it's something you use in passing. Yeah, there may be some things you don't like about it, but those are largely forgotten the moment you press start and walk away or the cycle ends. If something goes wrong most people are pissed they'll have to spend some money to replace it but move on afterward because it's just a nuisance.

A car, on the other hand, is something that you are faced with both using and experiencing every single day, often for significant periods of time. If it's too loud, underpowered, suspension beats you up, stereo sucks, has terrible visibility, is mechanically unreliable, or stuff rattles, the general population is stuck with it for the next however many years because changing it out like an appliance isn't an option. Most people understand this, so they're picky about what they choose within their budget.

On paper Nissan is very competitive, but when you climb into a last gen Rogue vs a CX-5 or a Murano vs a CX-9 the difference is immediately apparent as the Mazdas are simply better places to be.

Nissan is in a bad place, but it isn't a place from which they can't recover. I'd have a different opinion if their existing lineup was both a crappy place to be and mechanically unreliable. Outside the issues with the CVT's which they have largely seemed to have fixed. It just takes a lot of time to right the ship once someone with the actual stones to make a change orders something to be done about it. Executives like Ghosn and other Milton Friedman worshipers are more concerned about shareholder primacy than running a stable business. We're finally starting to see what happens when you kick that can far enough down the road.

In reply to The0retical :

What a great write up.

Years ago in school we had a lot of debates about do you run the business for the consumer (or run the business for the business) or run the business for the market/Wall Street ("share holders").

I think you hit the nail on the head with Nissan. 

Because we have had our car hit twice in the last 3 months, we've had an opportunity to experience a couple different cars. 

First one was an Altima.  Not "bad" but I wouldn't buy one.  The current one is a Malibu (I think; Chevy sedan of some stripe).

Chevy is better in every respect.  Drives better, more comfortable, a little bit better visibility.  If I had to buy a car, it would at least make the list of cars to look at.

My dad's 86 Maxima wagon was better than the Altima (the Maxima is long gone, but I remember how nice a car it was to drive).

I would say that a CEO doesn't necessarily need to be an enthusiast, but they do need to understand that enthusiasts exist and that their needs matter. They can then delegate that level of detail to people who "get it". Every car company has those people, they just need to be empowered.

The0retical said:

Flynlow said:

I am assuming this is a net negative for Honda, but that hasn't stopped their post-Soichiro leadership team in any of their previous blunders.  (Only hybrids moving forward, auto-only NSX, killing V10/V8 programs, etc., etc.)

Fire the business leaders, put the engineers back in charge, and let Honda be Honda: slightly different, super driver focused, and super reliable. 

It doesn't even have to be an engineer, just someone that doesn't think cars are dishwashers.

I'm still bullish on Nissan turning things around but they're making all the wrong moves with the pricing of the 400z and the 2025 Patrol. That market is rapidly collapsing under its own weight.

Seems to be working for Toyota

Peabody said:

The0retical said:

Flynlow said:

I am assuming this is a net negative for Honda, but that hasn't stopped their post-Soichiro leadership team in any of their previous blunders.  (Only hybrids moving forward, auto-only NSX, killing V10/V8 programs, etc., etc.)

Fire the business leaders, put the engineers back in charge, and let Honda be Honda: slightly different, super driver focused, and super reliable. 

It doesn't even have to be an engineer, just someone that doesn't think cars are dishwashers.

I'm still bullish on Nissan turning things around but they're making all the wrong moves with the pricing of the 400z and the 2025 Patrol. That market is rapidly collapsing under its own weight.

Seems to be working for Toyota

In that Toyota is repackaging other manufacturer's vehicles. The Supra is a Z4 with different bodywork and suspension valving. The GR86 is a BRZ with different suspension valving, front bumper, and colors available. The only Toyota part on the twins is the fuel injection set up. 

But if they will keep throwing money for other fun cars to be built, I'm all for it.