1200HP...but only if the stock trans will take it.
Seriously, that's not the question. It's how much power can I have without ever having to worry about the trans.
I'd be happy with 150rwhp tbh, but I don't want to get into tuning with a daily driven car so no turbos, cams or piggyback tuner thingies. An OEM motor & ECU that doesn't have too much power straight out of the box would be ideal.
Just because I had no knowledge of this prior to this thread and a friend pointing it out. How does this compare to V8 roadsters LFX kits?
Honestly, That is where the Chevy based swaps win out. The miata transmission just suck for big HP.
I love the LFX swap. Nice and light with the solid transmission behind it that will feel so unstressed in a miata.
Is the LFX a production thing ready to go people have done it? The v8 roadster site seems a little light on info. I guess the argument once going to all new drivetrain anyway is Keiths point, why not v8 then except just to be different.
Edit google answers that for me. Looks like its still being worked through.
It's still a work in progress.
The parts are for sale already. Looking forward to more info. They are trying to get CARB sign off for the swap which means basically a complete package ready to roll. I look forward to it.
http://www.v8roadsters.com/lfx-mounting-kits/
They have a LFX car that they have put thousands of miles on(cross country the day after they finished it), as well as track time. The mounting kit has been done. Like mentioned above, I think they are waiting on CARB before everything is released.
The problem with the Honda is once you swap the motor you're near the limit of the rest of the drivetrain.
And who here is actually going to swap in a different motor and leave it stock. That's not in our DNA
V8R has a tendency to get all excited when the big problems are solved, but forget about the detail stuff. It's going to take some third-party installs and debugging to get the swap worked out.
This is what I am afraid of Keith. When I am seeing used c5's now (not z06s) down around 10k you have to want to go nuts on the swap for other reasons.
The aforementioned Ecotech swap might be a good option if its clean/cheap because it can get you to around the mark of maximizing the miata drivetrain
What state of tune would you go for with the Ecotec swap? Something like MT motorsports one (200WHP & similar TQ)?
I ask because I'm guessing the stock 3.2L type-S motor would give almost exactly the same torque figures as the tuned Ecotec and that would make this V6 still pretty valid to my eyes even if it is a little heavier.
What say you?
Keith Tanner wrote: V8R has a tendency to get all excited when the big problems are solved, but forget about the detail stuff. It's going to take some third-party installs and debugging to get the swap worked out.
But engine swaps are rarely done solely for cost effectiveness.
Absolutely - buying a used C5 is going to be cheaper and might even have a higher ceiling performance-wise.
But you don't see a V8 Miata everyday. A V8 Miata is a conversation starter.
666csi wrote: 1200HP...but only if the stock trans will take it. Seriously, that's not the question. It's how much power can I have without ever having to worry about the trans. I'd be happy with 150rwhp tbh, but I don't want to get into tuning with a daily driven car so no turbos, cams or piggyback tuner thingies. An OEM motor & ECU that doesn't have too much power straight out of the box would be ideal.
Honestly.... if you'd be happy with 150whp, there's no way i'd even think about a motor swap in your case.
It really doesn't take much to get a BP around there, when compared to the work/cost of a motor swap, and in the year 2015, there's no reason that you shouldn't be able to get oem-like drivability and reliability out of it if you just do it right the first time.
666csi wrote: What state of tune would you go for with the Ecotec swap? Something like MT motorsports one (200WHP & similar TQ)? I ask because I'm guessing the stock 3.2L type-S motor would give almost exactly the same torque figures as the tuned Ecotec and that would make this V6 still pretty valid to my eyes even if it is a little heavier. What say you?
200whp/200tq swap price if it was like they posted of being like 2500+500 for the motor so 3k and doesnt require a lot of extra in order to get it wired up/tuned. I'd probably spend 1k or so on a 1.8 swap to get around 130whp. Most turbo/sc kits are going to be at least 4k, as good as the new oscar jackson 949 racing rotrex kits are looking I'm guessing I would not get 200hp out of my 1.6. It might be dumb also but if swapping to a newer series motor like the ecotec meant better mpg it would also be interesting for me since I still use the miata as a street car. I really like that v6 and nothing precludes it from being an option my thought process was more if you wanted to keep tq down to say 230 to save the miata trans and only swap the engine. I do love revving out the miata motor. The v6 will sound sex however
To me the attraction of the Ecotec swap is that there is that there are a variety of them that can be dropped in depending on the budget at a very wide range of power levels. Down-side is the higher power ones will eat a Miata trans quite easily it seems.
What about the trans mated to them in the Solstice? I take it that would require a PPF solution, making things a lot more of a pain.
Swank force one: I was under the impression you'd be lucky to get 115whp out of an early 1.8L BP N/A and a turbo would demand more than a perfect cooling setup for reliable track use judging by what's being said on this thread.
Also, I'm pretty sick of turbos in general for now...a personal problem I guess.
666csi, given a stock bp with Vics is about 130hp, 150 should be a cake walk, certainly easier than changing engine, ECU, mounts, adapting to trans an all the other crap that comes with swapping to an engine that was never intended to be there.
If your hell bent on a swap, why not consider the fe3 dohc Mazda engine, swap bell housing, mounts and a bit of wiring and it fits pretty easily, check out solomiata forums its been done plenty. Otherwise why not the Mazda k series v6, there's a few kl powered miatas out there and there's even a lass in the UK who makes adapters and other stuff so you could pretty much buy a conversion kit. At least your keeping Mazda with Mazda that way.
Food for thought
666csi wrote: Swank force one: I was under the impression you'd be lucky to get 115whp out of an early 1.8L BP N/A and a turbo would demand more than a perfect cooling setup for reliable track use judging by what's being said on this thread. Also, I'm pretty sick of turbos in general for now...a personal problem I guess.
140 is relatively common these days following the recipe used by SuperMiata racers. 150, less so. And not on an early 1.8, you'll want parts from the later ones. All easier than an engine swap.
My intake/exhaust '95 made 120whp on a notoriously low reading Mustang dyno(Pure-Tuning's) on 87 oct. I'm sure 140-150whp isn't hard to get out of it.
It'd be pretty hard NOT to make enough power with either a 3.2L or 3.5L Honda V6'd Miata to break the transmission. The torque curve isn't as 'hard' as a turbo engine, too, so I can see it lasting a decent while. I still wouldn't be worried about it. I'm still more worried about a reliable tuning option than anything else.
666csi wrote: Swank force one: I was under the impression you'd be lucky to get 115whp out of an early 1.8L BP N/A and a turbo would demand more than a perfect cooling setup for reliable track use judging by what's being said on this thread. Also, I'm pretty sick of turbos in general for now...a personal problem I guess.
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/lets-talk-na-miata-engines/61913/page1/
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.php?p=5704021&postcount=24
I always thought they were hard to make any power out of also... but apparently not.
666csi wrote: Swank force one: I was under the impression you'd be lucky to get 115whp out of an early 1.8L BP N/A and a turbo would demand more than a perfect cooling setup for reliable track use judging by what's being said on this thread. Also, I'm pretty sick of turbos in general for now...a personal problem I guess.
There's 200whp n/a BPs out there. Cost-effective? No. But 150whp doesn't have to be hard or hugely expensive to do.
I know of a 172whp stock bottom end BP. What I would do if I were starting with an old tired early BP.
Throw the old motor away. Or at least the head. Stick VVT 10:1 pistons in the bottom end. Grab a BP4W head, cut it 0.060". Intake, header, exhaust, and megasquirt. Won't cost as much as any of the swaps, won't be as much work, and you won't have to worry about keeping some bizarre swap car running.
Thats on a 1.8 to begin with tho right?
I should clarify the reason I say this is I have a 1.6 miata and so I would likely be looking at a swap before doing anything power is really worth it at all. So I am going to have to drop let's say 2k or so to swap the 1.8 (assuming I did some of the power options plus bought a motor)
Jaynen wrote: Thats on a 1.8 to begin with tho right? I should clarify the reason I say this is I have a 1.6 miata and so I would likely be looking at a swap before doing anything power is really worth it at all. So I am going to have to drop let's say 2k or so to swap the 1.8 (assuming I did some of the power options plus bought a motor)
That last sentence made me very happy to be a wrong wheel drive, backwards spinning engine, Honda fan. The amount of power I could make with $2000 for a swap that's about as easy as what you're describing would make you E36 M3 yourself. Then again, this is GRM, and people run 10's for $2000.
beans wrote: That last sentence made me very happy to be a wrong wheel drive, backwards spinning engine, Honda fan. The amount of power I could make with $2000 for a swap that's about as easy as what you're describing would make you E36 M3 yourself. Then again, this is GRM, and people run 10's for $2000.
A 1.8 swap doesn't run $2K unless you pay someone for the labor. The conversion parts are $200 off-the-shelf from FM, and most if it is stuff you can fab yourself for very little money if you've got the time, tools, and skill for it.
But yeah, Honda engines make stupid amounts of power for very little money, and there's no way a naturally aspirated BP is going to keep up in the hp/dollar ratio.
codrus wrote:beans wrote: That last sentence made me very happy to be a wrong wheel drive, backwards spinning engine, Honda fan. The amount of power I could make with $2000 for a swap that's about as easy as what you're describing would make you E36 M3 yourself. Then again, this is GRM, and people run 10's for $2000.A 1.8 swap doesn't run $2K unless you pay someone for the labor. The conversion parts are $200 off-the-shelf from FM, and most if it is stuff you can fab yourself for very little money if you've got the time, tools, and skill for it. But yeah, Honda engines make stupid amounts of power for very little money, and there's no way a naturally aspirated BP is going to keep up in the hp/dollar ratio once it's in the car.
Finished the sentence for you.
Keith Tanner wrote: Finished the sentence for you.
Well, beans was talking about putting Honda engines in Hondas, I assume. :) I have no idea where you'd find a transmission to put a backwards-spinning Honda engine in a Miata!
http://www.kmiata.com/products.html
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