How fast things are now

I think part of the "driving a slow car fast" appeal is the visceral experience of wringing out the car. Yes a modern 300 or 400 HP people mover can pass someone on the highway in a brief quiet rush of acceleration... but the driving isolation and lack of NVH isn't fun.

Regarding driving cars at their handling limits on the street... I never do that. I still like great handling cars though because it allows me to sustain fun G's and know there is significant margin left in the handling/braking in case an evasive maneuver is required. I cringe when I see SUVs or whatever pushing it to the limit.

I think I need to build an Exocet... that seems like it would be fun at all speeds/power levels. Just not all weather But talk about a visceral experience...

I'll agree that the higher powered cars are tough to wring out on the street. Even the 350-ish hp Jeep is enough that you have to be careful how long you keep your foot in it. And with the tall gearing, if you wind out any gear past first, you're well past any speed limit (2 - 3 shift happens around 85, running 2nd to rev limiter gets you just past 90).

But at the same time, with the torquey motor, it still feels pretty good to just get on it a little bit, so it doesn't feel like you're missing too much if you don't get to take it north of 3k rpm very often.

jv8 wrote: I cringe when I see SUVs or whatever pushing it to the limit.

Hey... We're not all on stock suspension, cheap brakes and soccer mom tires Although for some reason, I have seen a few too many Rav4s testing the limits of their all-seasons...

Mrs. Oldtin's Porsche 928s was a hand-built supercar class vehicle that claimed to be the fastest production car on the planet when it was new - topping out at about 155. Today I have a midsize station wagon electronically limited to 155 that's a bit quicker getting there. It's got one of the lower hp engines available for the model.

I dig the feel of wringing out a momentum car on a track, but I can't deny a love for brutal acceleration.

Let's see this 928.

I drive a 400HP E92 M3 on the track and the street. The pleasure of that car around town in heavy traffic -- in a normal, solid-citizen fashion -- is not to be underestimated. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it has genuine value for the extra expense.

In reply to JBasham:

Agreed. When driving my wife's IS-F and hitting the "go" button when dealing with crappy traffic/drivers is just a dream. POOF, you're gone. It really is that magical.

WingZombie wrote: I'd rather drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Being able to drive your car at 7-8/10 on a daily basis is more enjoyable to me than driving at 5/10. I went from 430hp to my current 185hp and I've not been disappointed at all because of what you stated.

I agree, had a Z06, could never floor it, kept moving down the HP chain, I think 255/290hp is almost perfect for just the right amount of power to have fun in a 3000lb car and still be able to use the gas pedal.

Driven5 wrote: To each his own. Personally, I'm convinced that the primary reason normal mass market vehicles are available with as much power as they are these days, is because the vast majority of people don't know how to use more than a fraction of the available power. So they think they need (want) 300+hp, and scoff at the idea of only having 100hp, when that's all they'll ever actually end up using. With 117hp, my Fit is more than capable of making the vast majority of traffic on my daily commute seem like a stream of rolling traffic cones...Well, when it isn't bumper to bumper, that is. I can still at least stretch those horses' legs enough to have a bit of fun while making my way through, yet without (in my opinion) being a d-bag about it. Driving in my wife's surprisingly sporty 276hp RAV4 mostly results in being further underwhelmed by the lack of sensation of speed and power if driven no faster or more aggressively than the Fit. With the alternative typically being some form of d-baggery, that can quickly and easily enough push into higher levels of illegality. So for my own commute, I just don't see the fun in having 300+hp when being almost continuously stuck behind an endless stream of vehicles never using more than 100hp. Not to mention the extra fuel still being burned (wasted) the vast majority of the time when I'm not able to enjoy the extra power. After spending a week in my wife's car, I realized that I actually don't even want as much power as it has in my commute around here. I suppose significantly more power might be able to mean equivalently more fun for <1% of the time I spend driving, and may be functionally useful an additional <1% of the time I spend driving, but the rest of the time it's just a waste. And yes, I have come to feel somewhat similarly about uber-sticky tires for daily driving as well, regardless of high vs low hp...Although it's worth noting that tire grip on most cars on the road is pretty directly proportional to acceleration potential. That doesn't mean I don't desire and enjoy such things in my 'toys' though.

This completely!

I've taken folks for a spin in my miata/accord (base 4 cyl 5 speed). Getting completely on the gas, I've had people tell me "holy crap your car is fast, what have you done to it?" they're both stock other then star specs on the miata. I guess they assume since I "Race" (autocross) that I've modded the hell out of them. A commercial even tapped into this with the nissan altima a bit ago. They put a bunch of people in the car all covered up with stickers and "roll bars" and such, said it was the new race car, and drove the hell out of one on track. No idea that the cars can be like that straight out of the box.

Buddy has a mustang GT and just dinks around in it. I don't think the car has even seen red line with him behind the wheel. He fussed at me once letting me drive it as he thought I was hurting the car driving it hard (it was warmed up and past the break in period). He got the GT because he wouldn't be happy with the V6 knowing there was a "faster" car out there.

hobiercr wrote: In reply to JBasham: Agreed. When driving my wife's IS-F and hitting the "go" button when dealing with crappy traffic/drivers is just a dream. POOF, you're gone. It really is that magical.

We won't talk about how many years ago this was, but I used to love doing that with my Q45. On real life everyday roads, there wasn't a yo boy Honda that could keep up with one at the time. A little blip of the throttle and they were gone, all in leather wrapped, air conditioned comfort.

As much as I love small momentum cars, there is still something to be had for a fast, comfortable everyday car. My dad's old 5 series was the same way.

sesto elemento wrote: Let's see this 928.

Scruffy paint, cracked dash and worn seats - also has coilovers, ltd slip rear, 24lb injectors, 928s4 brakes, turbo twist wheels. Will be on the market soon. It has been driven twice in the last year.

oldtin wrote:

sesto elemento wrote: Let's see this 928.

Scruffy paint, cracked dash and worn seats - also has coilovers, ltd slip rear, 24lb injectors, 928s4 brakes, turbo twist wheels. Will be on the market soon. It has been driven twice in the last year.

Sweet

Im building a challenge one with my students.

We truly are living in the golden age of horsepower right now. There's no denying it.

I also remember when having 300hp was some serious E36 M3. When the 4th gen Camaro SS came out with over 300 horsies, it was mind blowing. And then the Corvette Z06 came out sporting 385! That was INSANE! Now, you can get basically any family sedan with a V6 and make almost the same power. Hell, the Dodge Charger's BASE engine makes that much! The V6 pony cars, and even the 4-banger ones, will absolutely embarrass most of the big shot V8 muscle cars from the Musclecar Era in a straight line, even if you bolted modern rubber on them. And the new cars handle better, are more comfortable, efficient, and much safer.

I remember back in high school, when I was putting around in my V8 1987 Cougar with a whopping 150hp, I had a full on celebration once when I averaged 22mpg out of it on a tank of gas. The 707hp Hellcat Challenger will probably do better than that!

I like momentum cars, I like huge power cars. Huge power cars that go round corners, and stop and stuff, better yet!

In reply to SilverFleet:

Yea it's really a crazy time. I think of my 98 Z28 as a BERKELEYING FAST car, and it certainly feels like it to me, but then I ponder the fact that it's not uncommon to find over DOUBLE the horsepower in the modern crop of pony cars. I can't even fathom what that must feel like.

But here's my counterpoint to the "well even a V6/mini van/Accord?Camry/whatever has 300 hp nowadays" argument: sure it makes 300 hp, but how much torque? I had this discussion with my GF's BIL after her sister bought a Charger last year with the 3.6 V6. He was shocked to hear my big V8 muscly car only made as much power as his wife's V6 family sedan, and thought that with the bonus of AWD she ought to be able to smoke me. I told him to google the 1/4 mile times and bet that my Camaro would show over a second faster. As I explained, not only do I have the weight advantage, but her V6 peaks at something like 270 lb-ft of torque. I'm making over 300 lb-ft by 2k rpm. Sure enough, the 1/4 mile times showed over 1S faster. This whole point is obviously moot in relation to the modern V8 cars, though (although I can still stick a lot closer to a Coyote Mustang than one might assume.)

As far as being able to actually enjoy that level of power, I'll bet a lot of people's opinions here are colored very much by their location. In rural PA, I've got no problem finding space to wind her out at least once or twice every time I'm driving (though, admittedly, rarely in a legal fashion.) I also really enjoy having the power on my commute, which is all two lane back roads. If I get stuck behind a big rig, tractor, or other slow moving vehicle, I've got the power to actually take advantage of the 3-4 passing zones available to me and get around them safely and quickly.

Well context is huge one way or the other. Some of the best automotive times that I've had were wringing out my parents 1979 Volvo station wagon as a kid. At a drag strip, clearly I'd rather be in the Hellcat. Frankly I'd feel like an overcompensating fool if I'd paid good money for one, however.

I draw an analogy to weapons and fighting. I've never been interested in guns simply because any idiot can fire one and achieve an impressive result. Whereas martial arts requires hard-won skill to look good. Similarly, anyone with a heavy right foot and a bit of guts can tear it up in a Hellcat, whereas making a 100 HP economy car hustle takes skill. Skill = good.

One of the most fun cars I ever owned was a '61 Fiat 600D, with a whopping 32hp. And that was after modifications to the carb and a header. It was a screaming little motor with a nice shifter, and there was a section in the manual on how to set your pedals up for proper heel-toe. I would have loved an Abarth version. You could drift it around corners on it's small 12 inch rims, and it had really nice, direct steering. Oh yeah, and it did it all below the speed limit, even though it felt like you were flying inside. Wonderful stuff.

In my youth I dreamed of having a car that would do 0-60 in 10 secs. and 120 mph.

Now I have one.

2013 Fiesta

To take one step further, I have a friend who owns five toy cars with power-to weight ratios from 5:1 to 7:1. Yet he readily admits that his favorite driving experiences were in England in a MG TC, which makes a Miata look like a Hellcat. Let's see... tight, technical roads? Check. Often slippery conditions? Yep. Wind-in the hair through beautiful countryside? Uh huh. Sweet mechanical sensations working through the gears? Si. Visceral connection through the suspension to the road? affirmative. Big drift angles? You betcha. And here's the thing - most hyper-powered cars wouldn't be as much of a thrill under those conditions.They need more space to open it up.

I know that my superbike feels about like the right power to weight ratio for the street. It makes overtaking so easy, just a pleasure. I want my car to go like my bike does.

On second thought, it needs more power too.

sure it makes 300 hp, but how much torque?

That question becomes almost totally irrelevant once you have 8 gears and the only time you are under 4000 rpm is the first 10 feet. It used to be a big deal when you had less gears and less flexibility of what rpm you would be at at WOT.

Add cement bags to the z28 until it weighs as much as a charger and run it at the strip for me. Or just skip the middle man and look up the 1/4 mile times for a 300hp/tq single cab Silverado . Not 1s faster than a 3.6 Charger anymore.