Why don't you just swap in a jaguar engine?
Why don't you just swap in a jaguar engine?
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Frenchy said earlier it was a 392
In reply to SV reX :
Thanks. Looks like that guy up north has a 392.
I suppose it depends on if the buyer is dead-set on keeping the 392 cubes or would be willing to settle for a 354 or 331.... or other displacement.
About 15 years ago, first gens were a dime a dozen because everyone wanted the 426. I guess folks chewed up all the 392s and spit them out
An old racer told me 392 heads are easy to find because the drag racers split all the 392 blocks playing with nitromethane in the 60s. And that the 392 heads were actually better than the 426 stuff for a blown fuel motor, but 426s were easier to find and stronger.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
Super Red Ram is a Hemi.
Red Ram is a Poly.
And just to help things along, the 354 and 331 are low deck blocks. If he already has all the 392 parts besides the aforementioned block, then much of it won't work with the low deck engines. (And early Hemi speed parts are where most of the expense lies) My dad ran a 354, which made things easier (and cheaper), as the block and crank of the 354 Poly were the same as the Hemi. Unfortunately, there is no Poly 392.
As for using a later engine and making it look period correct, that is exceedingly difficult, as the 1st gen engines had the distributor in the back of the engine, like the later "La" series small blocks, the 2nd gens had the dizzy sticking out of the front of the engine angled towards the passenger fender, and the 3g Hemis don't have a distributor at all.
tester (Forum Supporter) said:
392 is 1st Gen.
The Donovan Aluminum blocks are still available but pricey. No need to reinvent the wheel.
https://donovanengines.com/donovan-417-hemi-aluminum-blocks/#!
tremm said:Who pays what when a block gets bricked, and the machinist is the one responsible?
If the machinist is like all of the machinists I have ever worked with, he likely signed away all rights. In most cases when something goes wrong, it's not the machinist's fault - core shift, unidentified crack somewhere internally, bubble/porosity in the casting. Sometimes it's totally their fault, but the repair order you sign almost always includes a waiver that says (paraphrased) "LA LA LA LA LA, CAN'T HEAR YOU, TOUGH E36 M3." Ok, not really, but given the unknown nature of a lot of what's inside a casting, they usually take steps to protect themselves. It's kind of like if you give a chunk of Maple to a bowl-turner and ask them to guarantee that it will be bird's-eye inside. When it comes out with a modest burl, it's not the artist's fault.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Accidentally machining off the stamped numbers on the deck when rebuilding the engine for a numbers matching resto, however, can get you in trouble.
Definitely a lot of "E36 M3 happens" when it comes to machining. And sleeving a block is mechanically traumatic - it almost guarantees that the thing will need to have all surfaces machined/line-bored. Gives me a laugh when people want to get a block sleeved so they don't have to buy "expensive" overbore pistons. Man, they have no idea...
22track said:The Donovan Aluminum blocks are still available but pricey. No need to reinvent the wheel.
https://donovanengines.com/donovan-417-hemi-aluminum-blocks/#!
Donovan built the first aftermarket HDMI blocks used in top fuel. The Donovan 417 was based of the 392. Keith black later built the first aftermarket blocks based on the 426 hemi. Plenty of supplies for aftermarket 426 blocks
MotorsportsGordon said:22track said:The Donovan Aluminum blocks are still available but pricey. No need to reinvent the wheel.
https://donovanengines.com/donovan-417-hemi-aluminum-blocks/#!
Donovan built the first aftermarket HDMI blocks used in top fuel. The Donovan 417 was based of the 392. Keith black later built the first aftermarket blocks based on the 426 hemi. Plenty of supplies for aftermarket 426 blocks
The stock 392 block had a tendency to get Bluetooth crankshafts.
I'll show myself out
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
frenchyd said:Asphalt_Gundam said:Pretty much any Foundry won't touch it unless it's their designed mold, etc. Then you have the fact that unless you're getting A LOT of them, they don't want the job. I couldn't even find a foundry that would use a proven mold I already had and do a small production run for valve covers.....
The Cheapest (and fastest) DIY way would be: Buy a 5 axis CNC, Faro Arm, MasterCam, Tooling and a huge chunk of aluminum. Might be able to do it for under 150K
The local foundry I know of does a lot of art stuff, one off, Bells, Etc.
An engine Block you'd probably have to do open deck then weld the deck in place. Once everything had stabilized mill everything square. An ordinary mill will be fine unless you charge yourself for your time. . Later use top hat sleeves to seal it.
Once the block is squared up use the old main caps to locate the bolt holes for the crank and existing heads to ensure head bolt alignment. Really the only thing requiring measurement will be the location of the head locating dowels. You can measure one location and then using a transfer pin, mark the other.
Crank boring would be done after the block is decked. There are companies that specialize in line boring. Likely you've got 10-23 hours of work. But they'll give you a quote. Bring your old block with youSo the cam, oil galley etc would all line up. Boring up to the oil galley from the mains will require a guide held in place but could be done on a simple drill press. Maybe you should do a blind hole first so you don't have fragments coming loose. You could even drill up through the camshaft hole fit some Allen head tapered pipe taps in and drill back into the galley. Really depends on how the Chrysler factory did it in the first place.
Now the factory does all that in a couple of passes with gang drills. But doing them one at a time once the head is securely located isn't challenging at all.
Plenty of labor. Most in the set up. But all doable for a determined amateur.
I know exactly how much labor goes into making a fresh casting into something useable...I did new Duesenburg heads when I worked at Manitowoc Motor Machining and Parts. And let me tell you...It going to be over 100hrs with the right tools/machines. The way you describe I'd expect a lot closer to 300hrs minium...unless of course you're going to spend all that time and expense "slapping some E36 M3 together". If you're planning to weld on a new casting you're already going at it wrong. That art place do pressure casting? Because just pouring metal into a mold isn't anywhere near the strongest or best way to do a block. Then there's how accurate they going to be...Molds are very complex and not just something that gets thrown together. If this was so easy for a DIY solution the Oldsmobile community wouldn't have had to wait 40+ years for an aftermarket block.
IF it was me I wouldn't waste my time and money on anything other than a billet.
22track said:The Donovan Aluminum blocks are still available but pricey. No need to reinvent the wheel.
https://donovanengines.com/donovan-417-hemi-aluminum-blocks/#!
But do they still have water passages in them so they can be used on the street?
I understand all the good news about billet. If it's a 1/4 mile a time, yes billet rocks.
But without that water passageway it won't work on a hot rod that's going to be going down the freeway
tremm said:Who pays what when a block gets bricked, and the machinist is the one responsible?
It's the owner. No machinist is going to work on some old casting and assume any responsibility. Impossible to know the history of the casting. was it ever frozen? over heated? stressed? Etc.
Yes machinists make mistakes. They are human after all . The fair ones will try to fix their mistakes for you but not all are in a position to do that.
Asphalt_Gundam said:frenchyd said:Asphalt_Gundam said:Pretty much any Foundry won't touch it unless it's their designed mold, etc. Then you have the fact that unless you're getting A LOT of them, they don't want the job. I couldn't even find a foundry that would use a proven mold I already had and do a small production run for valve covers.....
The Cheapest (and fastest) DIY way would be: Buy a 5 axis CNC, Faro Arm, MasterCam, Tooling and a huge chunk of aluminum. Might be able to do it for under 150K
The local foundry I know of does a lot of art stuff, one off, Bells, Etc.
An engine Block you'd probably have to do open deck then weld the deck in place. Once everything had stabilized mill everything square. An ordinary mill will be fine unless you charge yourself for your time. . Later use top hat sleeves to seal it.
Once the block is squared up use the old main caps to locate the bolt holes for the crank and existing heads to ensure head bolt alignment. Really the only thing requiring measurement will be the location of the head locating dowels. You can measure one location and then using a transfer pin, mark the other.
Crank boring would be done after the block is decked. There are companies that specialize in line boring. Likely you've got 10-23 hours of work. But they'll give you a quote. Bring your old block with youSo the cam, oil galley etc would all line up. Boring up to the oil galley from the mains will require a guide held in place but could be done on a simple drill press. Maybe you should do a blind hole first so you don't have fragments coming loose. You could even drill up through the camshaft hole fit some Allen head tapered pipe taps in and drill back into the galley. Really depends on how the Chrysler factory did it in the first place.
Now the factory does all that in a couple of passes with gang drills. But doing them one at a time once the head is securely located isn't challenging at all.
Plenty of labor. Most in the set up. But all doable for a determined amateur.I know exactly how much labor goes into making a fresh casting into something useable...I did new Duesenburg heads when I worked at Manitowoc Motor Machining and Parts. And let me tell you...It going to be over 100hrs with the right tools/machines. The way you describe I'd expect a lot closer to 300hrs minium...unless of course you're going to spend all that time and expense "slapping some E36 M3 together". If you're planning to weld on a new casting you're already going at it wrong. That art place do pressure casting? Because just pouring metal into a mold isn't anywhere near the strongest or best way to do a block. Then there's how accurate they going to be...Molds are very complex and not just something that gets thrown together. If this was so easy for a DIY solution the Oldsmobile community wouldn't have had to wait 40+ years for an aftermarket block.
IF it was me I wouldn't waste my time and money on anything other than a billet.
Couple of points. Some aluminum blocks are pressure die cast. That results in better grain flow, denser/ stronger aluminum but can't be done with a traditional deck. A deck is just added weight if the liners are properly located.
However the stock bore is 3.543 /90 mm to get a 3.750 bore the stock liner goes from 3.858 to 3.750 or about .103 thickness, given the density of the steel used for the liner it will survive. Except it will move around to much with nothing to locate the top such as a deck. So a deck is fabricated out of 3/8 aluminum. And stich welded into place. Instead of 326 cu in the engine can now be
frenchyd said:22track said:The Donovan Aluminum blocks are still available but pricey. No need to reinvent the wheel.
https://donovanengines.com/donovan-417-hemi-aluminum-blocks/#!
But do they still have water passages in them so they can be used on the street?
I understand all the good news about billet. If it's a 1/4 mile a time, yes billet rocks.
But without that water passageway it won't work on a hot rod that's going to be going down the freeway
The website states that all blocks are available full water, half water, or solid.
Appleseed said:Or have a 5 axis machine whittle a billet block out of aluminum.
Came here to say this. Iron casting is pretty tricky. Aluminum less so, but then you'd have to get into cylinder liners or coatings, or the like.
Dalton Foundry in Warsaw, Indiana can make any engine block you dream of if your pocketbooks are big enough. They do all the Dart stuff and a lot of experimental/short run stuff for Cummins.
I know a few other shops but Dalton is the best engine block shop I know of in the USA.
Do yourself and your friend a favor and skip the art foundry. I have done enough work with them to understand their skill set is in beauty, not function. If you want a cast block go to the right source.
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
With the numbers of used Hemi's available there is no way to justify a new block.
I told him so and showed what people on this site have found and he agreed.
The machinist who ruined his block has told him that as compensation for his mistake he'll do all the machine work required on the replacement for no Charge.
People make mistake. If they do their best to correct theirs that is an honorable person. I'd use him.
93gsxturbo said:Dalton Foundry in Warsaw, Indiana can make any engine block you dream of if your pocketbooks are big enough. They do all the Dart stuff and a lot of experimental/short run stuff for Cummins.
I know a few other shops but Dalton is the best engine block shop I know of in the USA.
Do yourself and your friend a favor and skip the art foundry. I have done enough work with them to understand their skill set is in beauty, not function. If you want a cast block go to the right source.
That's a nice bit of knowledge. Thank you.
In reply to wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) :
Thank you.
You'll need to log in to post.
