I also want to note that I found hakka sidewalls to be much stiffer, which aided in handling and hooning. As transitional response allowed for more initial hanging out of the back end. This is what also causes me to prefer them for rally cross use.
I also want to note that I found hakka sidewalls to be much stiffer, which aided in handling and hooning. As transitional response allowed for more initial hanging out of the back end. This is what also causes me to prefer them for rally cross use.
Hakkas are marginally better but for general use get whichever is cheaper.
alfadriver wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: I like real snows because you're not sacrificing anything in the summer - and when you're driving them, you're not wearing your summer tires. The only cost is an extra set of wheels. Of course, I come from a place where snow tires are actually required by law these days. Another vote for the Generals. We don't see ice here, so they're perfect for my mostly dry/occasional snow use. And then the car runs Hankook RS3s the rest of the timeThe importance of that depends on the car and the drive that is regularly done. My drive- there's little influence to having good summer tires. But it was better enough in a Miata to do it. Not in a basic Fiesta. Now if I had a Fiesta in your part of the world, I may change my mind.
It doesn't matter until that one time when you need all the traction available, then the most expensive snow tires available are a bargain compared to the alternative. It could easily be argued that snow tires are more important on a boring commuter than a play car like a Miata because the Miata is optional, whilst the commuter will be the one on the high-risk, unavoidable trips.
And like I said - they're basically free, because your non-snows don't wear while you're driving the snows.
Keith Tanner wrote: It doesn't matter until that one time when you need all the traction available, then the most expensive snow tires available are a bargain compared to the alternative. It could easily be argued that snow tires are more important on a boring commuter than a play car like a Miata because the Miata is optional, whilst the commuter will be the one on the high-risk, unavoidable trips.
And that is exactly the reasoning I have for dumping winter tires after one or two seasons. It seems expensive until it isn't. I've been fortunate enough that the times I wished I had better tires only required a tow truck or only involved property damage.
It's like how people will dump autocross tires after they get heat cycled out, and that is for "fun". This isn't for fun, it's for safety.
In reply to Keith Tanner:
Exactly! I'd rather save an insurance deductible and/or lives than worry about losing a little storage space.
But different horses for different courses and all that.
I have had great luck withe the GRM friendly Hankook Ice Bear. Have run a few sets and they satisfy on the cheap. Pay attention to date codes as the compound is much more time than wear sensitive.
Possibly the best subject line ever.
Thanks for all the response guys,
Keith I'm not adverse to storing extra tires by any means, I move the hoosiers to the basement and the all seasons take over their spot in the garage. no extra wheel costs since I picked up some cheap tire changing equipment off CL last winter.
The argument about the most expensive snow tire being cheaper than the alternative is a good one and I've used it in the past with friends who claim their AWD summer car gets through snow better than a 2wd vehicle. (they usually have no response when I point out that most cars on the road today have 4 wheel braking and tires are about the only thing effecting stopping distance in snow/ice)
I think I'll give the Nokians a go and see what they're all about, Since we've mostly established they'll be at least as good as the blizzaks I won't likely be disappointed with them, time will tell if they're better.
David, thank you, I just randomly punched the keyboard in the general area of letters used to spell the name of those tires.
In reply to Keith Tanner:
People say that a lot, and ignore personal experience like mine.
Also, depending on how you "own" a car, tires are far from free. I'll part with my car far before the tires wear out.
Your personal experience was "in two winters, I didn't have a moment where I needed more traction". That's good. But it doesn't invalidate the logic. At some point, you might need to stop 10' shorter.
I don't know how you could deal with a quick turnover of vehicles unless you get lucky with tire sizes. Good point there.
Keith Tanner wrote: I don't know how you could deal with a quick turnover of vehicles unless you get lucky with tire sizes. Good point there.
You mean, some people don't heavily weight "wheel bolt pattern" in their new-car criteria? 
Keith Tanner wrote: Your personal experience was "in two winters, I didn't have a moment where I needed more traction". That's good. But it doesn't invalidate the logic. At some point, you might need to stop 10' shorter.
This is why I run snows, do I really need them to get around? Not really. They do however allow me to outmaneuver just about anybody else on a snowy/icy road should the need arise.
In reply to Keith Tanner:
So you suggest that our last winters were somehow not valid? We had a lot of snow and ice, where traction needs were high. But I didn't have to adjust my driving, given the previous 22 with dedicated snow tires.
That has been my point all along. All season tires are better than most think, and work fine for typical SE MI winter on a nominal car.
I'm saying that perhaps your sample wasn't large enough. You may not have triggered the airbags (or even the ABS) either, but that doesn't mean they're a waste of money when you really need them.
Obviously, a lot of people think all-seasons are good enough. I run them on two of my cars - and I did manage to get through a surprise serious winter storm in Utah in the M5 with them. But it wasn't easy, and I would have been a LOT more comfortable with proper snows. All of my nominal cars run dedicated snows, as they're the ones that are most likely to be out in those conditions.
In reply to Keith Tanner:
I used to think all-seasons were enough. I bought my hometown a new fence when Eagle GAs proved to be insufficient against an iced-over brdge. I paid the local towing company $70 when my Nissan found a ditch it couldn't escape from.
I was also HAHAHA I AM GOD HERE when I first tasted decent snow tires (Blizzak WS-50s, on an A2 Golf) and I have never looked back. Of course, like any drug, that first taste was the best, and nothing else since then has come close.
Seriously, even after replacing that Golf with an AWD car, and putting snow tires (Altimaxes and Nordfrosts) on it, nothing has come close to how incredibly compentent and unfazed that Golf was on those 13" Bridgestones. Awesome tires and a 2200lb car with manual steering is incredible, I suppose.
I will never, ever, drive a car with all-seasons in the winter, again. This is a promise that I have made for myself just the same as the promise I made to myself that I would never consider money when it comes to what food to eat. (I was so poor a long while back that I lost 50 pounds due to only eating twice per week, my body is still pretty farked up from that, on reflection) Maybe it is decadence, or maybe it's recognizing that it is really, really foolish to not be prepared for an annual event that you know damn well what is going to happen.
Some people may consider it a point of pride that they are so tough they can go through winter in a 2wd pickup on bald tires. The rest of us hate being stuck behind that a-hole in traffic, slowing the rest of the world down.
Girlfriend just saw this on the Book of Faces. I thought it was fitting.
My first experience with winter tires was 4 Blizzak WS 50s on a Mazda 323. That was over 20 years ago. Just bought a set of Blizzaks for the CX5, which I will sell in 3 years for enough money to finance part of a new set. Plus, I don't have to worry about wear beyond 6/32 or pay to get rid of them. Just bought my first set of Altimax Artics for the Tacoma to find out how they compare.
I wound up pulling the trigger over the weekend on a set of the Hakka R2's. For comparison sake I got Mrs. Klodkrawler a set of hankook icept w320's for her Subaru Legacy. She's driven on Conti Contactpro all seasons the last 2 winters so I'm sure those will be a marvelous improvement there. Also I'm fairly confident in typical MI fashion now that I have brand new snow tires for both cars we won't get any snow here until mid February but I'll post back with some comparisons whenever we get enough snow to test.
alfadriver wrote: All season tires are better than most think, and work fine for typical SE MI winter on a nominal car.
I had similar thoughts for a while. And then I put a set of snows on the Jeep. The difference it makes on a bad winter day in terms of not constantly driving near the tires' limits, not having to crawl around making traffic slow and crappy, having extra safety margin in case of someone else being stupid and not having the tires totally let go once they start to slip a little (the Hakkas love high slip angles) is huge.
After a couple winters with good snows, I'm of the opinion that they should be mandated in northern states (like parts of Canada do) and anyone who drives on snowy roads with all seasons is an absolute moron. IMO, if you don't want to run snows, you stay home until the roads are 100% clear of snow, ice, slush, etc.
I have Blizzaks on my Cayenne. They closed the Eisenhower Tunnel last winter on me, had to wait 45 minutes for it to reopen. When it did, everyone around me with all seasons couldn't get going again up the hill, even with AWD.
I slalomed around them all up the hill. I always run snow tires on my DD. My wife stays around town, her SUV never goes up the hill, so I run the Nokian WR's on her car. Better than an all season but not quite a snow tire....
rslifkin wrote:alfadriver wrote: All season tires are better than most think, and work fine for typical SE MI winter on a nominal car.I had similar thoughts for a while. And then I put a set of snows on the Jeep. The difference it makes on a bad winter day in terms of not constantly driving near the tires' limits, not having to crawl around making traffic slow and crappy, having extra safety margin in case of someone else being stupid and not having the tires totally let go once they start to slip a little (the Hakkas love high slip angles) is huge. After a couple winters with good snows, I'm of the opinion that they should be mandated in northern states (like parts of Canada do) and anyone who drives on snowy roads with all seasons is an absolute moron. IMO, if you don't want to run snows, you stay home until the roads are 100% clear of snow, ice, slush, etc.
I agree with rslifkin. Even worn out winter tires are better than new most-seasons, IMHO.
I learned and drove on regular tires when the only alternative was chains. No All Seasons or winter tires.
So I am sure I could get around with my Fiesta on it's AS tires. BUT After driving on Blizzaks, starting with the WS15, I will never drive in winter without them. Sort of like a security blanket.
I have had occasions when my drive was much more enjoyable with them than without.
A friend of mine says that the main difference between Hakkas and Blizzaks are that Blizzaks start to get pretty sketchy around 80 MPH 
. I'd run Hakkas anyways, as spending an extra hundred or two hundred on a set of tires is cheaper than a tow out of a ditch + repairing the crunched plastic if your tires aren't grippy enough for the situation.
docwyte wrote: I have Blizzaks on my Cayenne. They closed the Eisenhower Tunnel last winter on me, had to wait 45 minutes for it to reopen. When it did, everyone around me with all seasons couldn't get going again up the hill, even with AWD. I slalomed around them all up the hill. I always run snow tires on my DD. My wife stays around town, her SUV never goes up the hill, so I run the Nokian WR's on her car. Better than an all season but not quite a snow tire....
Colorado has a new traction law. It was only used on I-70 last year, but this year it's expanded to all interstate and state highways. Basically, when the traction law is in effect (aka Code 15), you need to have snow tires, M+S tires or AWD as well as sufficient tread. Get busted, it's $130 or more. If you block the roadway during a Code 15 and you don't have the appropriate tires, you can be fined $650 or more for being a pain in the ass.
I've driven through the passes during a Code 15 (snow tires AND AWD , baby) and the mayhem was incredible. Watching poorly-equipped vehicles trying to start from a stop made for some great entertainment, but they sure tied up traffic.
There were 143 Code 15s during the 2015-16 winter.
I feel so inadequate when I read this thread. My wife's '14 Impala got Firestone Winterforces a month after we bought it, on Tire Rack's cheapest wheel. They're okay in most situations, but man, will that thing stop. I use Cooper/Mastercraft on my '96 F-150 4x4. The reason for the "slash" there is that I'm transitioning from Mastercraft to Cooper. The reason for this is that the tread blocks on the Coopers are straight, which makes them easier for me to re-sipe with my dirt-track style tire grooving iron. The truck has a real unique tire rotation system. When I need new snows, they go on the winter wheels, on the front axle. The ones that were on the front last year go to the back. The ones that were on the back last year go to the summer wheels, on the front, and the ones that were fronts last summer go to the back. The summer rears are bald, and get thrown away.
I got four Auto Socks for my birthday last year, so if the E36 M3 really hits the fan, I'm covered. I intentionally got the truck stuck in 2wd (in about 18" of snow on an uphill grade), put the Auto Socks on, and drove out. They're neat. I can't imagine what it would go through with them on all four.
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