How to make a dealership excellent?

I don't know how you fix the fundamental problems with the industry, but...

Salespeople are slimey gameplayers with little knowledge about their product because that's the nature of their jobs. They are typically the lowest paid people at the dealership. They are not respected by the dealers or the people they are dealing with. There is large turnover and a low barrier to entry (mostly just passing a drug test). I know someone that has worked at many dealerships because they would become unemployed and they could always get a job there, even though she is half-crazy.

As long as the position is so poorly paid and regarded, the person dealing with the public is not going to represent the dealer very well.

I know there are exceptions. That some salesmen make a good living and are valued by the dealerships. I have a distant relation that is guaranteed an income by the dealership since he has such a loyal following and sells so many cars. And not by being a jerk.

In many cases, the dealer makes it worse by squeezing more profit by charging stupid fees and accessory charges. I walked away from a used truck purchase at a dealer because the paperwork included an additional "administrative fee" of $400 that was preprinted on the sales form. "We charge that on every sale" was the explanation. I dropped the keys on the floor and left. The salesman called me later to let me know they had agreed to "waive" the fee. I told him I bought a truck elsewhere.

Out of approx 16 cars, I've only bought one at a dealership, and it was used. I've considered a few new cars and dealt with salesman. I don't know if a better experience would've put me into a new car or not.

Some of this is repeating what is above:
-Don't try and upsell. If a customer has clearly done his/her research, says they want X and Y, don't push Z. It's bullE36 M3 and it'll make me walk away in an instant.
-Know the car. At least the basics. Don't tell me the S2000 has a V6 or that the 350Z has a turbo and that's why it gets good mileage. If you don't know the answer, don't make something up.
-Don't spam the E36 M3 out of Craigslist with Ads please. Guaranteed way not to get my business.
-Don't post ads for cars you don't have. "Oh, X was just sold, but we have Y which is very similar". I equate this with lying.
-If you sell used cars, don't sell broken used cars. I've checked out many used cars on a dealer lot and they have the check engine light on. I'll ask what the issue is and they just shrug. "I dunno." You dumb asses, you have the tools to check that in 2 minutes. Maybe its the berkeleying gas cap is loose and you can tighten it down. Wouldn't that make the car easier to sell?

I imagine its probably hard to do these things and keep a good business. Repeat customers don't come back that often, so you can't rely on them for income. The rest of the time you need to compete with the same people all the guys who are doing this sleezeball crap are selling to. I'd guess the bad guys have an advantage in this scenario.

Curmudgeon wrote: There was a saying: 'the sales dept sells the first car, the service dept sells the rest'.

Still holds true with the wife and I. My wife has been buying new Buicks from the local dealership since 1980. We had always been very satisfied with the service untill last year.

The car was stalling when you came to a stop. I know enough to suspect the IACV and told the service writer when we took it in. They kept calling saying it needed this and that even to the point of replacing the ECU and I kept asking about the IACV. I was assured that the IACV wasn't the problem, they had checked it.

They called to say it was ready and the bill was $2500. When we went to pick it up I insisted that the wife would take the service writer for a test drive before we paid. She didn't even make it off their lot before it stalled in the same way!!!

Ended up having a long talk with the service manager which resulted in the IACV being replaced (which solved the problem) and us paying for the IACV replacement only.

We are going to get her a new car in the next month or so. I have $40K in the budget for it. We won't be getting a new Buick!

Brand knowledge is good. Knowing roughly what a car actually is, and maybe just a tiny bit about how it works, is also good. My sister wanted a specific model of new car with a manual transmission. She called around to a few dealers. Manuals were scarce, naturally, but one salesman was eager to make a deal and suggested that she come in that day, so they could take one of their automatic cars and put a manual in it for her.

I cannot believe that this individual was an asset to his employer.

I have beendoing business with my local dealer for many years. Always a pleasant visit. In all departments. When the Fiesta that I ordered seemed to have gotten lost,they went all out to find the car . The dealer himself got involved and made several calls to Ford. I find that it helps to have some idea of prices etc and how much you are willing to pay etc. Don't be afraid to walk.

My dealer: Browns Ford in Johnstown NY.

terp83 wrote: In retrospect, I think the salesman and finance manager knew exactly where this transaction was going when my son took delivery of the new car. I spoke with the CEO of a local credit union (I serve as a volunteer board member) about this, and he said that this is widespread. He also related that sometimes, the dealer will quickly dispose of the trade-in to further limit the customer's options.

Selling the trade-in as part of this bait-and-switch, in order to force the buyer into the more expensive deal, is known as "unhorsing," and for reasons unknown to me (but probably connected to lobbying by the dealer associations) is not universally illegal.

A couple of things that I would like to see when buying a car and that would make me likely to come back:

• Try to treat me like you would like to be treated. If you're upfront about things and treat me with respect, you'll get that back. Otherwise, I might not be able to out-slimeball you, but I'll certainly try.
• Don't try to pull the wool over my eyes when it comes to financing. I work in the financial industry and I tend to read the small print on anything I sign. Especially don't tell me that my pre-arranged financing is "no good here" unless you really want to find out why I have a reputation for being unpleasantly Germanic in my directness if I have to be.
• I'm a busy man. I have to work for my money and I'd rather not waste hours and hours in your dealership while you're playing games. Make the transaction quick and pleasant and I'll come back when it's time to work on my AADD again.

Pete240Z wrote: I asked three Datsun 510 racers in Chicago who would be a decent Nissan dealer to get parts from. They all suggested a guy in Missouri. All the Nissan dealers in the Chicago area suck? Yes. Same with Honda parts I go to. I rack up some fast miles and needed some oil filters. Every time I copy the past invoice and hand it to they guy for the part numbers. Price goes up every time. Give me fair prices at parts. (you know I can get this all on eBay?)

This.

DON'T screw people at the parts counter. We will talk about it.

I needed a transmission mount for a 1982 datsun maxima. I went to the local Nissan dealer, and their price was ~$208. Somebody here reminded me to check Rock Auto. The same part there was $7.97 (Anchor part # 2487).

JoeyM wrote: This. DON'T screw people at the parts counter. We will talk about it. I needed a transmission mount for a 1982 datsun maxima. I went to the local Nissan dealer, and their price was ~$208. Somebody here reminded me to check Rock Auto. The same part there was $7.97 (Anchor part # 2487).

$200.03 is to cover the cost of manufacturing it on demand for you right there at the counter.

Cermug was right. The sales department sells the car at a small profit. The service department brings in large margins......and brings in return customers.
So, you want the best techs working on the cars right? Pay them hourly, or hourly plus a percentage of the ticket. As a tech, I HATED to do warranty work because you got kicked in the balls then when you were down, they gave you a titty-twister like you'd never believe.
There were plenty of technicians (not the majority though) screwing the customer because they had to pay a house payment that week. Pissed off techs, or desperate techs will not win you customers. If you pay your techs fair, you will be able to pick the best-of-the-best out there.

mguar wrote: In reply to BAMF: BAMF; What you did was bait and switch the salesman.. You made a deal with a internet salesman.. then went to the dealer and took another salesman. Naturally he tried to make as much profit as he could.. If you make a deal on the internet, get the salesman's name and when he works.. IF you don't, you will be treated to all sorts of unfair practices. Yes insist on that salesman.. He makes a commission only when you sign a deal..

I may have left out a few steps in the story. I came in, asked for the salesman with whom I had corresponded. I met with him, and after showing me the car and going on the test drive, he took me over to another guy to fill out the final paperwork. I'm not sure if this was the "finance manager" or what his title was exactly. That other guy was the one who kept trying to change the game.

I'm still not sure if the second guy was deliberately trying to squeeze more out of me, or was just not paying attention, or just hadn't communicated at all with the internet salesman.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

JoeyM wrote: This. DON'T screw people at the parts counter. We will talk about it. I needed a transmission mount for a 1982 datsun maxima. I went to the local Nissan dealer, and their price was ~$208. Somebody here reminded me to check Rock Auto. The same part there was $7.97 (Anchor part # 2487).

$200.03 is to cover the cost of manufacturing it on demand for you right there at the counter.

I'd have much happier thoughts about a dealership if they offered both the manufacturing-it-on-demand part and the cheaper-equivalent-aftermarket part. Some dealers might say that there's no money in selling budget parts for 20 year old cars. That's true, but if I think fondly of your dealer, I might visit you again when I need a new car. (i.e. the goodwill they could engender might pay dividends in the future.) As things stand, I now have a Nissan dealer I would not consider buying a car from

oldtin wrote: I'm a little hard pressed on what value a dealer actually offers. I'd rather be able to order a new car directly from the maker. Outside of recall or warranty work, I won't be hanging out with you in the service area either. And parts, that might be what I'd buy, unless I could get those direct as well. In about all states dealers are a protected industry and legislated necessary evil that are structured to have an adversarial relationship with the customer. But if I have to deal with you, transparency is the word.

The local BMW dealer probably will never have me buy a new car from them unless I happen to find an unexpected pile of money, but I stop by their parts and service department - well, not often, as the car's held up well, but they're definitely the go-to guys for alignments and some other specialized work. They've established to me that they know how to fix BMWs right, and they charge reasonable prices. (A tire shop that did a bad toe-and-go alignment charged more for worse work.) And they're convenient for picking up interior and similar parts you don't see at the local parts store.

I can see a sales staff having some value for people who don't already know precisely what they want. I've mentioned this on another thread that wasn't about dealerships: Somebody once told me the first thing a salesman needs is believing that they have what meets the customer's needs. The kind of upsell mguar mentioned makes sense in this context - if the salesman can tell a customer's needs better fit a more expensive model, it makes sense to say so. But trying to sell someone who wants an economy car a pickup truck (had a Ford salescritter try that to me) should be a fireable offense.

You'll probably have customers who come onto the lot knowing exactly what car they want, and customers who need a new car but have no idea what. And, of course, some that may think they know what they want and then find it's a letdown during the test drive. It helps if the sales staff can tell which is which.

And, of course, no games.

Hal wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: There was a saying: 'the sales dept sells the first car, the service dept sells the rest'.

Still holds true with the wife and I. My wife has been buying new Buicks from the local dealership since 1980. We had always been very satisfied with the service untill last year. The car was stalling when you came to a stop. I know enough to suspect the IACV and told the service writer when we took it in. They kept calling saying it needed this and that even to the point of replacing the ECU and I kept asking about the IACV. I was assured that the IACV wasn't the problem, they had checked it. They called to say it was ready and the bill was $2500. When we went to pick it up I insisted that the wife would take the service writer for a test drive before we paid. She didn't even make it off their lot before it stalled in the same way!!! Ended up having a long talk with the service manager which resulted in the IACV being replaced (which solved the problem) and us paying for the IACV replacement only. We are going to get her a new car in the next month or so. I have $40K in the budget for it. We won't be getting a new Buick!

have you let upper management with the Buick division or GM know your problem and you decision ? might be interesting to see/hear the reaction ... 'course you'll have to name names

I am very busy taking notes here and want to sincerely THANK YOU folks for the well thought out responses! There are a lot of misconceptions about the industry as a whole. One is that all dealers have the same business model and more importantly ethic. Not true. Mgar mentioned the "buyers are liars mantra". Sadly this is very common. Hopefully more a response to a perceived threat then a statement of their personal character...Remember that we have millions and millions of dollars in facility and inventory plus a business reputation to protect in a very tough environment. The Carmax one fixed price deal is interesting too. But behind their warm fuzzy advertising is the largest profit per transaction in the industry. Was $2850 per deal years ago. And the parts department is just about completely disconnected from the sales department. The workaround there is to find a buddy with a commercial account. The pricing is much better! This is the information age. You can get a GREAT car deal with information. Please ask around about how your friends were treated at different places. Again, thank you GRM for having the coolest and best site on the planet

Carmax is were I got the Nisan Sentra. They treated me right. No up sells, an explanation of each trim package, no "I have to see my manager" ( I really hate that. Don't waste my time and just get him for me.), offered test drives of other cars in the "class" and he didn't bother me. The sales guy walked up when I first came in the door and introduced him self and told me to find him when I was ready to ask for a test drive or had questions. He was willing to just let me window shop. Sometimes the extra money is worth the no hassle and BS.

My dealing with the GMC fleet dealer was really good too. They just sold me exactly what I wanted but I have a feeling fleet dealers are B2B and not looking to milk people.

mguar wrote: In reply to Basil Exposition: Basil Yes some if not many salesmen are slimy it's pure self defense in most cases.. I won't sell cars again.. I forget just how slimy customers can be to salesmen.. disloyal, dishonest, unreasonable, uneducated, and willing to cut a salesman's throat for a buck.. Have you ever misrepresented your car? Under-educated yourself? Demanded a better than fair deal?

Sorry, my mistake. I didn't realize that it was those darned customers that were the problem.

The ONLY reason I set foot onto a franchise stealership lot is if I simply can't find the vehicle I want elsewhere. It doesn't matter if I'm buying a car off the front line or the wholesale line, I wind up wasting an entire day arguing with people and feeling like a need a shower afterwards. I'm not a guy who haggles for sport; I may actually just pay the asking price if it's fair (this does happen). If you start out way higher than the market, we won't even talk. I vastly prefer independent dealers (if I must and can't find a private seller) and have successfully bought several cars that way and never felt screwed. I have, in fact, recommended some of them to others. Can't name a single new car franchise dealer I'd recommend to anyone (and I deal with dozens of them daily for my job).

I can't even imagine the agony of trying to buy a new car from one of these clowns. Internet sales FTW, if I had to do it.

I actually had a salesman yell at me, calling me a liar and an idiot, because when I went to test drive a Colorado I compared it to an Isuzu i-270 and said his price had to be a lot closer for a stripped down standard cab to keep me from buying a better truck across town. I insisted the Chevy was so much a better truck they couldn't even be compared. When I pointed out that they were both built in the same Isuzu plant in LA and that the Isuzu had a better warranty things went down hill quickly.

Point is, knowing your own product isn't enough, you should at least know the cousins to your models as well. Can't get that feature or feature combination in a Traiblazer, but can get it in the Saab equivalent? Tell me and even though I may buy the Saab today you will be the guy I call when it's time to trade it in.

And don't try and charge me $40 for parts in the service department that I walk up to the counter and take home with me for $25. Why should I be paying more for the same part from the same place, just because you walked across the hall instead of me?

ls1fiero wrote: I work for a large family owned dealership group that has been in business for more than forty years.

I notice your profile says Loganville, you don't happen to work for the folks who own Loganville Ford?

Honestly for me it kills me when i stop to look at a new car and the sales person runs out but doesn't know a thing about the car.

For example i was at my local Hyundai dealer looking around and wanted to wanted to test drive a turbo Spec-R edition. I was looking at a base model when the sales person runs up and starts talking to me, I tell him i want to look at a turbo spec-R and he just gives me the blankest look and says they only come in 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder. I promptly walk with him into the show room pick up a pamphlet and point to a spec-r on the back cover he then walks off and never comes back.

After 3 pages I think I can sum up this thread:

Put a reasonable price and excellent execution on the car, the service and parts. Lose the sales department.

I'm not a fan of dealers, but I have to say that the service dept. at our local Toyota dealership (Greentree Toyota/Scion in Danbury, CT) is phenomenal. They actually split the sales and parts/service ends of the dealership (and they're actually 5 miles apart).

Here's the link to their website: http://greentreemotors.com/markup.aspx?markupid=48752

Things I like about the parts/service area:

• The prices on parts are competitive, whether you're picking them out yourself or their part of the service. I don't feel like I'm being ripped off on the parts end.
• 10% discounts for services on Monday (Ladies Day) or Friday (Men's Day)
• For basically anything more than a brake change, they will drive to your house in a loaner, pick up your car, leave you the loaner, and return your car when you're done. It looks like there's a $25 charge now, it used to be free. Even so, I'll pay the $25 for never having to leave the house!
• I've never had a problem getting a loaner
• No appts. necessary, just drop-in
• Service writers (there are about 8 of them) are polite and knowledgeable, and treat the customers with respect. This isn't the case where they have a couple of good ones, I've worked with all of them, and they're all good!
• I can take their 30K/60K/90K service sheet, cross out items I don't want done, add items I do want done, and there are no issues

In addition to these items, we had an issue with the intermediate steering shaft on our RAV4. It would intermittently clunk. Toyota had everyone replacing struts, strut mounts, etc. but nothing fixed it. I kept going and documenting it while it was within warranty, but it was inconsistent and I couldn't reproduce it when driving with the techs, and finally the service manager. Finally, the service manager said that we've done a good job documenting the issue, just wait until it gets really bad (even out of warranty), and then bring it in. The warranty expired at 36K, I brought it in at 42K when the issue became really bad. By that time there was a TSB out for the issue, and true to their word, they applied the TSB with no cost to me.

To sum them up on the parts/service side I think they're very fair in their pricing, they don't add on unnecessary work, and they treat their customers with respect. They treat us the same whether my wife drops off the car or if I do. These types of things make an impact, and when we have to replace our Odyssey, I'd strongly consider a Sienna not because I like them better (I don't), but because the dealership experience is so radically different (I have to travel 50 miles to get a decent Honda dealership). I do a lot of my own maintenance, but it's nice to know when I don't have the time/expertise to do it myself, I can hand them the keys and trust that it will be done right, with quick turnaround, and at a reasonable price.

On the sales side, I think most dealerships would do well to treat someone who knows what they're talking about with respect. If you want to try your games with someone who doesn't know what they're doing, that's fine. But once someone knows what they're talking about, comes armed with information, don't insult me by telling my that my invoice off of Edmunds is $2,000 off. Like many here, I have no problem with a dealership making a reasonable profit off a new car sale. We bought our RAV4 for $500 over invoice when they first came out, and we got to order it exactly how we wanted it. To me, that's a reasonable deal. You may not make a ton of money off of me, but don't think I won't tell my car buddies (and family members, my wife and I do everyone's car shopping for them) about how great your dealership was to work with.

The dealership documentation fee/advertising fee really gets me, too. When I negotiate a price, I specify that I want it all in, minus tax, tags, and registration. Don't give me a price and then add on $350 with the dealer fees. Same goes for add-ons like bedliners, I'm happy to do that stuff after the sale, but don't appreciate these items being mandatory.

To the OP---- Screen your management candidates closely. Only hire ethical, honest managers. The sales staff will only act like slime if they are allowed to get away with it. If your ethical standards come from the top down--- and are enforced, word will spread that yours is a dealership folks can feel safe to deal with.

Fire the scumbags, nurture the sales guys with ethical standards. The "turn and burn" mentality is short-sighted, treating folks well is not.

mguar wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: You're simply asking to be screwed. Dealerships will make money.. they are a business.. The only way to prevent that is spend the time to really educate yourself.. Don't go with an opinion. Don't "know" anything . treat buying a car like a scientific exercise..

I do not begrudge them making money. Walmart makes money but they never try to make more on one customer than another except to sell more items by making the price attractive.

I am never asking to be screwed. I don't pay for depreciation or fees except those the state takes out of me. I don't buy new cars and if I have to do all my own homework then I am well qualified to find and acquire used ones on my own too. I don't buy anything from a dealer except weed. I was just distilling the thread summary. There is really nothing a new car dealer can do to earn my business except offer a car that I simply cannot wait to own. No such car exists to date.