mad_machine (Forum Supporter) said:wspohn said:The Model 3 is a beauty queen compared to the Muskmobile (aka the Cybertruck) - not THAT is fugly.
If you think that is ugly, wait till you see the Bolinger!
I think the Bolinger is much better looking than the Tesla truck. Reminds me of a Defender.
In reply to Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) :
Had me thinking lambo
It's like a Defender but without the subtlety and nuance.
RevolverRob said:In reply to Chris_V :
Edited:
Maybe you should take it down a notch? Calling me a berkeleyer is actually not only inappropriate but pot calling the kettle black for saying I'm 'close minded' when I have an opinion different than your opinion?
Sorry about your boring car.
EVs aren't the future, folks who think so are actually blind to the politics and reality of living in urban areas to build an EV infrastructure for the public. Fuel-Electric hybrids are the future. I could elucidate, but I actually doubt anyone actually wants to understand that.
Peace out to folks in this thread.
Her's the deal berkeleyer. I like ALL cars and I don't care what powers them. YOU are the one being insulting about a power plant that is different than what you are used to. And calling you out for it is not being closed minded. So no, until you grow up I'm NOT going to "take it down a notch." Insulting berkeleyer.
Chris_V said:Her's the deal berkeleyer. I like ALL cars and I don't care what powers them. YOU are the one being insulting about a power plant that is different than what you are used to. And calling you out for it is not being closed minded. So no, until you grow up I'm NOT going to "take it down a notch." Insulting berkeleyer.
No. I didn't actually say any of what you're saying I said. You inserted a whole bunch of words and opinions into what I wrote, to perceive a, personal, insult where there was none and none intended. I don't know you from Adam, why would I insult you? (I mean aside from the ample reason you've provided with your behavior since).
Calling me close minded, is not only idiotic, it's reflective of your inability to see past your own viewpoint as being the superior one. In other words, you're unable to view an alternate opinion as valid, ergo you are close minded. Continuing to insult me with an ad hominem attack not only does not improve your case or standing, it demonstrates that you're unable to continue or accept anything other than acquiescence to your view point.
You are not only 100% out of line, you are the individual who started this particular train of perceiving an insult for an inanimate object. You should probably take that into consideration.
Have a nice day, with much love and respect,
-Rob
Oldboy Speedwell said:
Although I am totally anti EV and ICE-for-life, I do hope that at least my favorite automotive bodyform might be saved by EV designers doing "city car" type o' stuff.
Heck if Honda did a retro Civic EV I might be interested. That looks cool. I would prefer with a high reving ICE but take what you can get.
Oh and in before the lock,,,,
ProDarwin said:Just like you shouldn't tell people all of their gasoline is subsidized as well.
Very good point, there!
In reply to LopRacer :
I like that as well. The wheels are horrid, but a stroke of a pen would fix that,
BOOMER FIIGHHT BOOMER FIGHT
But yeah, a lot of the current crop feel like we're just climbing out of the compliance era of EVs; aside from Tesla we haven't seen many really "play" with how they can be made to look aside from the coming designs from Rivian. Like, I get why ford made the Mach-E look like a "normal" SUV- or anything on the road for that matter- but that doesn't mean it looks good.
The "don't need radiators" is a myth tho.
In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :
I've been called a lot of things. But a "boomer" is by far the most insulting! (Joking).
At 35, I fit squarely in that round hole between Gen X and Millennial. I grew up with carbs and fuel injection. You don't need a transmission to have fun, a direct drive gokart is quite a bit of fun.
And I even think it's possible to build a non-boring electric car (gasp!). But all of the current ones are built as either appliances or as vehicles for extremely entitled people to remonstrate their arrogance with (or both).
In my subsequently edited post, I did lay out why EVs are not really the future. At least not the current tech level. The infrastructural demands cannot be currently met in most urban areas, due to limitations of space, power availability, and dedicated parking areas. When electric tech can fully recharge an EV battery from empty to full in the time it takes to fill a tank of gas then it will be viable, as long as fuel stations can be retrofitted to accommodate charging. Barring these significant charging breakthroughs, electric vehicles remain niche for suburb dwellers. Though it could be and should be quite viable to convert many industrial and public fleets to electric in the short term.
Transition to fuel-electric hybrids and further development of alternative, lower emission fuel, combined with better battery tech, will absolutely be required to move forward. Electric vehicles may be the future, I remain unconvinced, because there are significant and huge hurdles to overcome. The tendency of folks to become unhinged when advocating for or against makes the political barriers quite significant as well.
Signed,
The 35-year old Guy with multiple STEM degrees and published works in environmental, biological, and Earth sciences, who maybe has a clue about a few things, but doesn't like to tell people what they should or shouldn't do or should or shouldn't think.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Nah, all you really need is the tech to increase the recharging speed by, say, 20x. If you can do that then recharging an EV works the same way that filling the tank on a gas car does.
Tesla is working on that. The standard plug for a tesla car has about 5 or 6 contacts to recharge the battery. The Semi has double that. It appears that rather than having one big battery pack, they broke it up into smaller ones that can be recharged faster. The big issue with charging though, is heat. If they can find a way to super cool the packs while they are charging, you can cram a lot of energy in at one time.
I would rock the E36 M3 out of that EVCC Civic. Wheels and all.
Also, I've been driving and racing electric vehicles for over 30 years.
I think the big hangup is aerodynamics. As long as range is a primary selling point/concern for EVs, they're going to be designed to maximize that as much as they can, so kammtail fastbacks are the shape that we get. If charging speeds increase to something comparable to filling a fuel tank, then range anxiety is pretty much eliminated and they could (theoretically) make some different choices/compromises in the designs.
All right, attacking cars is fine, attacking people is not. I politely suggest that Chris_V and RevolverRob head back up thread and edit their posts and to dial it back a notch for the rest of the thread. Please and thank you.
mazdeuce - Seth said:All right, attacking cars is fine, attacking people is not. I politely suggest that Chris_V and RevolverRob head back up thread and edit their posts and to dial it back a notch for the rest of the thread. Please and thank you.
Who in the hell are you to tell me what I should or should not believe? Is this some sort of 1984 mind control? I must feel personally attacked and then offer an outrage.
Why do you think this HUGE group of idiots comes to this place of business?! To role play important decision makers for berkeleys sake! I ask you to edit YOUR post and dial up the rudeness and sense of arrogance a notch or folks are going to start thinking this is hosted on a UK server for Chris sake!
Olemiss540 said:mazdeuce - Seth said:All right, attacking cars is fine, attacking people is not. I politely suggest that Chris_V and RevolverRob head back up thread and edit their posts and to dial it back a notch for the rest of the thread. Please and thank you.
Who in the hell are you to tell me what I should or should not believe? Is this some sort of 1984 mind control? I must feel personally attacked and then offer an outrage.
Why do you think this HUGE group of idiots comes to this place of business?! To role play important decision makers for berkeleys sake! I ask you to edit YOUR post and dial up the rudeness and sense of arrogance a notch or folks are going to start thinking this is hosted on a UK server for Chris sake!
I'm a moderator on this forum. It's literally my unpaid job to ask people to be nice. So please be nice.
Edit to note that I totally missed the sarcasm of the post above this. I'm half a coffee into the day, and for that I apologize. Don't moderate while undercaffinated kids.
In the before times I spent a lot of time in Berlin, Stockholm, Paris, etc. I would say that 50% or more of the cars you see in those cities are already electric. The charging infrastructure is everywhere you go. Tesla is now valued higher than GM or Ford. It seems odd to me to insist that it can't be done when it's clearly already being done. OK maybe it will take Terre Haute, Indiana some time to catch up. Charge time and range are obviously nuisances and barriers to adoption, but they're hardly insurmountable. I will grant that people will have to change some of their habits to accommodate the new technology, and that many people are reluctant to change, but it's coming.
Speaking of Berkeley, the Bandit is supposed to make a comeback in 2021 available as EV.
Nicely designed render, but reality always comes out different.
https://www.berkeleysportscars.com/bandit-gt
:
I like the look of this e.go thing too, vibes like an Abarth Soul or somthin'
https://www.e-go-mobile.com/en/models/e.go-life-sport/
:
Must admit I'm a sucker for retro looks and seeing this upstart American company take cues from one of my golden oldie favorites is pretty cool, although clunky in places it still grabs good to my eyes...
https://www.alphamotorinc.com/ace
...the Alpha Ace:
So, the exterior design is exciting to me because the field is wide open and many different hands are on deck with myriad interpretations and concepts.
Interior design not so much because screen'd out Star Trek not my cuppa.
Driving dynamics unknown to me so I dunno.
Lack of mechanical noise a big turn off tho.
.
Likely in the future there will be mandates implementing required sound for sake of ped safety, as well likely interior sounds to emulate engine speed which makers may exploit for giving their brand unique proprietary sound?
.
Oldboy Speedwell said:Speaking of Berkeley, the Bandit is supposed to make a comeback in 2021 available as EV.
Nicely designed render, but reality always comes out different.
https://www.berkeleysportscars.com/bandit-gt
Now THAT is beautiful. I may be a bit biased because it looks like a Cayman, which I own, but still.
STM317 said:I think the big hangup is aerodynamics. As long as range is a primary selling point/concern for EVs, they're going to be designed to maximize that as much as they can, so kammtail fastbacks are the shape that we get. If charging speeds increase to something comparable to filling a fuel tank, then range anxiety is pretty much eliminated and they could (theoretically) make some different choices/compromises in the designs.
Aero has little to do with it, though. Some of the EVs, like the i3, are designed specifically to be ugly, and have paint schemes that accentuate the ugliness.
Clean aero makes a car look bland, not "oh my god multiple people thought that was a good idea?"
In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
To be clear, it's not impossible. But the hurdles are significant.
The European approach may be a model for how to do it in the US, it may not Paris is a dense and small city. Which in theory means there should be more competition for EV charging points, but also means there have to be less vehicles stored within Paris on any given day, because they cannot physically fit in the city
I looked at the numbers, for a comparison. Paris and Chicago have similar population numbers ~2.5 million residents within city limits. But Paris is ~20% the size of Chicago at ~40sq miles to Chicago's 250sq miles.
Paris has a considerable density of EV charging stations 828. For effectively 20 charging stations per square mile. Chicago has 600 charging stations for 2.4 charging stations per square mile. To match the Paris density, this city needs an additional ~5400 charging stations.
Of course, that's unrealistic, neither city has equal population density per square mile. Easily 2/3rds of Chicago's population is crammed into 1/3rd of it's size. So the actual number of stations needed is reduced. Of course that assumes the current number of stations in Paris meets demand, which is an interesting question without a clear answer.
In my neighborhood, there are ~27.5k people in a 1.65 sq mile area. And approximately 5000 cars (roughly one car per five people). If we follow that the average Chicagoan commutes ~22 miles a day (estimated commuting per Chicago Transportation folks). And take the ~200 mile range that is common today in EVs a car only needs to be fully charged every 10 days. In that case on any given day, there would be ~500 cars that need to be charged if they were all electric. If you can use a supercharger and go to full from flat on 20-min, then you need ~10,000 minutes of charging available on a given day for a 15-hour period (people aren't going to charge their cars from 9p-6a here for uhh safety reasons). My math is a little rough here, but that means my neighborhood would need 11.11 supercharging stations. Each car would need to be able to be fully charged in 20 minutes or less, the charging stations are as reliable as the pumps at a gas station, and the energy demands can be met by the energy supplier (an interesting problem unto itself).
BTW, the above is a mixture of worst and best case scenarios. The worst case being that 500 cars need a full charge every 10-days. The best being the 20-min charge cycle. It also assumes that there are no "home charging" situations nor do folks charge their vehicles elsewhere. Basically, it's a rough calculation of the maximum demand needed.
The additional shift in behavioral pattern required to charge and operate an EV due to lower range and longer charge time is a non-starter for many Americans (and in fact seems to be a hurdle in France too). Combined with the higher costs of buy-in makes them a tough sell. Then we have the very realistic situation that range is reduced in cold weather for electric. Meaning charging must be more frequent and the heat must be able to be run when the car is charging or warming centers need to be available, etc.
Again, none of this is insurmountable. But each represents a logistical challenge, a potential sociocultural barrier, and required infrastructural upgrades. Combined they make this a long uphill change not a short one. I honestly believe the current 10-15 year timelines are ambitious at best and likely to be untenable. In a world where I cannot get a sink hole that could swallow a small EV fixed by the city, I have low faith in politicians to get over the barriers quickly. Of course, money makes the grass grow, enough dollars lining enough pockets can make anything happen.
PS: I did some reading on Peugeot's approach with the Zoe. The approach of buying the car but leasing the battery is an interesting one. It could work in the US, since Americans LOVE to lease/buy things on credit. And they LOVE to upgrade. Termed leases on batteries with upgrades or reduced lease rates to zero dollars when you don't upgrade like we do with cellphones could work well here.
Infrastructure is a hurdle. European countries have far less square kilometers to contend with. Of course cities will adopt and upgrade, but remember the California rolling blackouts? Not a good way to charge your car.
I'll consider electric totally viable when its fully supported in the middle of nowhere, Montana, where my brothers live.
In reply to Appleseed :
But e'tricity is that majic stuff just comes out the wall... how could that be a problem?
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