I need a new track toy, too

Lugnut said:

slowbird said:

Boxster with an LS swap?

Show it to me for $5,000 and I'm in! :)

http://www.renegadehybrids.com/986/LS-1.html

The base kit is $4,695. I'm sure you can find a truck motor for $300...

Ok.. I lied.. 91 civic si.. 

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/cto/d/milwaukee-1991-honda-civic-si/6964327543.html

gods chariot awaits..

Rabbit and Civic vetoed because of rust issues.

And that’s a base kit for 4695. Plus the engine plus all of the rest of the parts needed for the conversion plus the countless hours spent troubleshooting an engine swap plus plus plus... 

There too many questionable suggestions here and not enough talk about the cars I keep saying I like. Let’s close this thread down. Changing this because my last reply made me feel like I was being a little jerky.

Okay, there's the compilation of all of the useful replies:

Useful replies:
mazdeuce - Seth 
Mustang. You can hit that same 3100lbs/325 hp, parts are available and cheap-ish. At stock power levels you should have fun and the car would be reliable as a brick. 

Sonic
For $5k I think you are on the right track with an 8th gen Si or an NC.

nocones
Nissan 350Z/370Z.  Get a 350Z track and you will have ~3150lb/300HP.  They are deceptively fast at trackdays and have good brakes stock.  Other then the weak Viscous rear diff they are capable stock and the aftermarket is huge.  Interior space is good, tires are typical modern car sizes.  

kevinatfms
Focus ST from 2005-2006 would be a hoot. Its a 2.3L Mazda motor with a 5 speed in a suspension/brakes lifted from the SVT Focus. Highly capable and yet no one knows about them. Engine is dead nuts reliable, trans is beefy and i believe Mfactory offers a limited slip diff for it. I believe the exhaust was also made by Borla and it had a nice little note to it. FSwerks still has a FULL catalog for the car with a turbo kit as an option...
Other choices:
Camaro SS
Mustang GT
Sentra SE-R V Spec(has LSD)
Civic Si
Mazdaspeed Protege
SVT Focus
Fiesta SE w/ 5 speed
Beetle Turbo S(dont knock it till you try it)

slowbird
I'll +1 the 2005 Focus ST suggestion. (With the caveat that right now mine's broken. Alternator. Ugh.)

kevinatfms
One more that is a total sleeper is the last generator Celica GT-S. 2ZZ-FE equipped! Lack of torque can upset people though during street duty.

I will say when you wring a 2zz out it is absolutely glorious.

Focus SVT - Capable car, only gripe at this point would be parts avaiability. I have heard a few parts like the rear calipers are discontinued. So id search parts that will be required to be replaced frequently or upgraded if the time arises.

Beetle Turbo S - Made them for only a few years, 1.8T, 6 speed and a cool little rear wing that comes up at 60+mph. They are a GTI with a harder to access engine bay so be a little wary about that. Keep the engine somewhat stock and it will run all day long.

Sentra SE-R Spec-V - The Spec-V models had an LSD stock which is a HUGE bargain. The engines occasionally grenade themselves but i believe it was due to the OE catalytic converter clogging. Swap in a header when you get it and they are supposed to be dead reliabile.

I still think a 2005-2006 Focus ZX4 ST is your car. 150hp/150tq but the thing only weighs 2500lbs. They are a cross between Ford's best after SVT mixed with Mazda heart and a dose of new age Ford Performance before they were a thing. So parts are available from multiple models and upgrades can come from multiple models(Fiesta ST brakes i have heard will fit...).

Id grab one for $2500(they usually come up right around there with 100k miles on them). Do fluids, pads/rotors, tires and some Konis then track it. Before i settled on my 2002 Elantra for Chump Car we were looking for the 2005 ZX4 ST cars or an SVT Focus to campaign. If i ever sell the Hyundai, i will buy a ZX4 ST for a track car.

Little article on the ZX4 ST by C&D.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15132429/2005-ford-focus-zx4-st-short-take-road-test/

And differential by MFactory. It has the same 5 speed as the outgoing Focus manual models with revised ratios.

https://ostarmotorsports.com/Store/Product/Helical-LSD-Ford-Focus-MTX-75

clutchsmoke
Lugnut I'm in the NW Chicago burbs if you want to try an 8th gen Si sedan out.

bcp2011
FRS.  I purchased a 2013 model for $12k w/ 78k on the clock.  It's been two years now and probably 30ish days on track and it's been pretty great.  Outside of maintenance stuff I've had to do nothing else (ex. modifications of course) with the exception of changing a coil pack on track (they are known to fail on pre 2015 models with intense heat - I've had ~25 track days since).  The only other issue has been me using thicker oil than recommended during the winter (I'm in Chicago too), which caused a VVT error and I fixed that myself (total cost less than $200). 

On track they are really a ton of fun.  Not sure your experience level but with a great driver they can do really well stock (seems like you're already aware that they need an oil cooler for track duty).  At my first track event two years ago I met a guy named Peter who had a similar car.  Outside of fluid / pads and camber bolts up front with Hankook RS3 tires (225/45/17) he was completely stock.  I later found out he did a 1.42.6 at Autobahn South, which if you know the course is a hell of a time.  Here's the video he sent me - https://youtu.be/RH6sxjUXuvE

So if you're willing to stretch on your budget, I think it could certainly be in your consideration set.  I'm going to be at Autobahn tomorrow afternoon / evening for a LAPS event.  If you're not too far and want to get a ride to see it on track I'd be happy to give you a ride (note - my car's not exactly stock anymore - wheels, headers + tune, coilovers, rear LCA, a few bushings, diffuser).  

I know you prioritized $5k, reliability and ability to track out of the box, and fit.  If $5k is really the max, you've already narrowed the choices above.  If not, and you can stretch, then you may need to use some other measures to narrow the field.  I think by initial glance a key question is whether you NEED RWD or you're indifferent.  If you're indiffierent the Honda platforms are pretty great - reliable, cheap, easy power.  I'd have zero worries about tracking a civic/integra/RSX.  If you don't want FWD, then that gets rid of most of your list.  The 350Z will be a bit more than the rest and the 86 platform in terms of consumables just due to weight and power and tire sizes, but if RWD is a must, as it was for me, there really aren't that many options (unfortunately...).  

KyAllroad (Jeremy)
One that hasn't been brought up yet:  The second gen Ford Probe with the KLDE motor.  Ask Spoolpigeon about it as a track car, I'm pretty sure he's quicker in it than he is in his C5 Corvette.

clutchsmoke
The RSX suspension recipe has been sorted out AFAIK. My understanding is the mini has a fair bit of reliability issues and is a total pain to work on due to packaging.

bcp2011
RSX - not an expert by any means on Hondas, but I see plenty of them on track and people seem to have a lot of fun with them.  Plus I think the Type S goes up to 9k RPM.

If you're ok with FWD why not get the best sorted out Civic you can find?  They probably tick most if not all of your boxes and a ton of people race them, so there's a good support community, and the parts/consumeables are cheap as E36 M3.  

Mike924
Being part of the PCA has helped me out a lot with my 924 and 944.  I know, not the same as a Boxster, but it a wealth of information.  I do know that i am biased.  In the end for cheap (relatively) and fun I would go with a Corvette. Parts a plenty, knowledge a plenty and the cost to get in with a 4th or 5th gen could be in your price range.  I am in Canada so it always looks priceier to me.  LOL.

morello159
What about a Honda Accord v6 with a manual? Not super common but fairly inexpensive, reliable, fast, and would be a great daily..

Error404
A MkV GTI is fun on the track but mods/parts can get pricey. I don't have any experience with a MkIV but there's a whole lot of modding threads from mild to wild out there and parts aplenty. One thing I really liked about tracking my GTI was the big hatch, most everything I need fits comfortably in the hatch. 

From secondhand experience, a MazdaSpeed3 can get you in trouble. From what I have heard, they do a really good job of putting down their power and they have a good bit to start with. They're a bit heavier and bigger than a GTI but probably drive roughly similar. 

FWD is different, and freaks some people out when you're out with them, but it's a lot of fun to swing the tail out and mash the throttle

bcp2011
I just remembered one thing about the 13/14 twins - the coil packs go bad on them at the track sometimes.  Basically the heat of the engine bay kills them, and obviously at the most inopportune times.  It's not hard to replace them (1 hr max), or alternatively you can get vents to help with the temp control, but it is an issue.  If you go 15+ the issues is fixed (new coil pack and engine harness, unfortunately the coil packs are of diff design so will not fit in the earlier cars unless you take the new engine harness too, which is a pain in the butt to replace (and $$).  So most people like myself just bring an extra coil pack or two to track days.  

I remembered b/c I had this issue today while on track**.  Two coil packs (two diff cylinders) in about 30-35 track days.  

** I got a check engine light, found the code, went to replace the damn thing, only to find out that my extra one is from 15+ models (I got it used on Ebay, so clearly a mislabel and I didn't check after I got it), so I put everything back on and reset the code, hoping I can get another few laps, except the thing never came back for the hour that I was on track.  

Of these, we have bcp2011 who provided actual track experience with his FRS (which is DQ'd due to budget) and Error404 who provided actual track experience with his GTI. We had one "just use the Boxster" without any evidence to support that it will be fine as is or needs such and such mods in order to be fully reliable.

I posted this specifically looking for track experiences and comparisons and, yeah, some suggestions, but I need suggestions with actual track data like reliability and fun-ness and ease of use and maintenance requirements. Suggestions outside the budget, suggestions that I have already said I don't like or want (NA Miata, BMW, S2000, Viper) aren't helpful. Also, this is a drive to the track/drive home/drive to work scenario. Nothing that needs to be trailered. Nothing that I need to work on between run sessions. Nothing super rusty or otherwise compromised. Nothing like, "In really good shape, runs great, needs engine." 

I don't want to sound like a jerk or like I'm slapping hands that are trying to help. Y'all here are too important to me for that! I just figured with all of our crapcan teams and all of our track enthusiasts, someone might be able to shed some light on the cars I keep listing out that appeal to me.

Lugnut said:

 

There too many questionable suggestions here and not enough talk about the cars I keep saying I like.

This is GRM... this is what we do..  

In reply to Lugnut :

Reality is that there aren't that many cars that fit the bill (track side reliability, can be fun out of the box, affordable at less than $5k, can daily, fit your specific needs in terms of interior space, etc.), so if you're narrowed down on a list of cars I'd go to model specific forums to find out more about them.  The number of people who track their cars is like 1% of car enthusiasts, which is like 1% of the total population, so finding specific model experience on track is going to be hard outside of where those people congregate.  

In reply to bcp2011 :

This is true. But we're that 1%! :)

I've pretty much narrowed it down to four:

Cheapo NC Miata

8th gen Civic Si

Spec V

GTI/Beetle/TT 1.8T

There are two Beetle Turbo Ss not terribly far from me. I just texted one of them. It seems easier to find a really clean Beetle Turbo S than a really clean Mk4 GTI! And I love the idea of taking a cutesy little guy like that to Blackhawk. :)

In reply to Lugnut :

there is a cheap NC for sale on RoadRaceautox.com

It's far from you but he's asking $5k

https://www.roadraceautox.com/showthread.php?65657-2006-Mazda-Miata

bcp2011 said:

In reply to Lugnut :

Reality is that there aren't that many cars that fit the bill (track side reliability, can be fun out of the box, affordable at less than $5k, can daily, fit your specific needs in terms of interior space, etc.), so if you're narrowed down on a list of cars I'd go to model specific forums to find out more about them.  The number of people who track their cars is like 1% of car enthusiasts, which is like 1% of the total population, so finding specific model experience on track is going to be hard outside of where those people congregate.  

Plus out of the 1% most have favorites, trailer for this or that reason, or simply don’t use what your favorites are.  

It sounds like you’re asking for someone just like yourself with your preferences and desires who’s done it already using one of your favorites.  

Ever notice how many different cars are at the track?   Either we’re wrong or we’ve chosen some for reasons other than yours

In reply to Lugnut :

If cute is a variable at play than I guess you can't beat a Beetle, but is that really necessary outside of the shock factor for a track car?  Out of the ones above Miata seems to be the most natural choice, followed by Civic (not sure difficulty of finding a clean, unmolested one).  Good luck.  

bcp2011 said:

In reply to Lugnut :

If cute is a variable at play than I guess you can't beat a Beetle, but is that really necessary outside of the shock factor for a track car?  Out of the ones above Miata seems to be the most natural choice, followed by Civic (not sure difficulty of finding a clean, unmolested one).  Good luck.  

No, it absolutely isn't. I just like seeing cars at the track that you don't often see at the track. It's just a funny thing about the car, not a criteria. I contacted all of the decent 1.8Ts and the rebuilt title NC. We'll see what happens. I might just do nothing and expand the budget next year. But I believe there is fun to be had in this segment that isn't an NA or NB Miata.

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm not sure why this is directed at me..?  I've provided experience on a platform where i have direct feedback to provide, which is what the OP wanted.  I don't think I've tried to push anything?  I did not try to convert him to buying one, or question his priorities.  The OP said he wanted more direct feedback, so if he's curious about the Beetle I don't know this is the right place to get track experience / feedback on that car?

In reply to Lugnut :

Absolutely.  My favorite car at the NASA track events is this ratty civic with an engine swap that's running in ST4.  He's not that competitive, but it's fun to watch him battling cars out there and he has a blast.  

Zzw30 mr2 the (real) answer

In reply to bcp2011 :

Sorry, I was responding to the OP and just hit reply.  I agree with what you said.  Just elaborating on your comment.  

I did recommend a car that I tracked as well. A 90 Civic with a B20 swap and ground controls on Koni's. For $5K, It's the best thing that I've ever had outside my ITB Mk1 GTI but most of those are long lost now a days and I wouldn't want to DD one. 

Early Honda stuff is the most fun you can have under 5K. You can get an integra, put in $1500 to a suspension refresh and have a cheap track toy.

The problems with most of the convertibles on the list is you will pay nearly 1K for the required safety stuff to get it on track. 

The 8th gen Si is a good track car. I've done One Lap in one twice. Motor/trans is great and there is a very healthy aftermarket. You have to like to wail on it to keep up with faster cars as it likes the top of the rev range. Like all K motored cars that are tracked you need to watch oil levels. It will fit a 275 with coilovers and some fender rolling. Brakes need good pads at a minimum but really need some cooling mods. Engine compartment is a bit on the tight side. Stock suspension is a bit soft but capable of winning a rallycross national championship. A tune to move V-tec down helps stay in the power on track. Lots of options for that. 

The real advantage it that it'd a great day to day car. Comfy and practical, parts at every parts counter, about 30mpg driving around. The disadvantage is that same commonness that it shares with the Civic. More that a few people don't think it's special enough. 

My experience:  The NC in stock form is a lousy track car.  Later models got better, but the suspensions were too soft and they weren't fast.  That said, for not a lot of money the suspension can be made great, and some bolt-ons and a tune make it a lot more entertaining to drive.  Another NC would be one of my top track/daily choices, and they're a lot better daily driver than the NA/NB.

And there's always the option down the road for the 2.5L.

Lugnut: I read the thread. I reread the thread. I don't think I can help you. You drive expensive BMWs, Porsches, Camaros, and then say an old boxster 2.7l replacement engine @$4k is just way too expensive? You know spec Boxster exists, right? These cars are pretty popular, & go wheel to wheel with slicks on. What oiling mods do they do? Baffled oil sumps and accusumps.

You say that you are unwilling to get the odd special tool to do maintenance and repairs on a car you plan to beat on @ 20 track days a year? That's basically a track day every 2 weekends. From my perspective, those 20 days are going to cost $4000 in tires alone. $5000 in track entry fees. With oil, gas, brakes, repairs, upgrades etc.... I bet your 20 track day year ends up near 15k. What's a special tool here and there to keep the thing running?

You are unwilling to modify the seating position of the car you choose so you fit properly? (both in the Fiesta and Miatas) 6'4" people race Miatas with helmets on. How tall are you?

You are asking about fairly rare turbocharged Volvos as reliable and cheap track cars? 

You are unwilling to modify a Mustang's suspension with bolt on components to make it more track worthy?

You won't drive a 350z because of the v6 noises & that you feel like you're sitting way in the back? You realize this is utter nonsense, right? V6 and H6 noises are pretty similar. And you sit in the same place as every other car in a Z. Just look @ one. Viper drivers sit further back....and they pay good money for that seating position. Some grassroots racers heavily modify their cars so that they can sit way in the back and 'feel the rotation'.

Sorry, I'm having trouble seeing how I can help you.

Perhaps narrow down and solidify your requirements a little bit? Otherwise, just keep doing whatcha been doing. Have fun! That's a long list of cool cars you've played with. I'm sure you'll be happy whichever way you go.

318ti

Add Z3 steering rack and proper suspension and you'll still be less than $5k. 

Wait, what tools am I not willing to get?

I am totally committed to properly maintaining the car. If that needs some tools then it needs some tools. I must have spoken about something specific but I don’t remember what. 

I disagree on the Z sounding anything like the Boxster. And the driving position and feeling are a total turn off! Why is that so weird? People don’t like cars for all kinds of reasons. I know Vipers sit further back, too. And I didn’t buy one when I was looking however long ago that was because I didn’t like the way the car felt around me. 

But major modifications like dropping the floor pan in a Miata or solid mounting seats with no sliders or removing air conditioning... yes, I know super tall people race Miatas. “Race” is the word here. I can’t have a race car. I don’t have a garage where I live. I can’t store a trailer. I can’t store a car outside that isn’t weatherproof. 

Spec Boxster runs 2.5L cars. Believe me I have been giving another Boxster a lot of thought. The general wisdom (of the Internet, so whatever that’s worth) says the 2.5s are a big more robust and aren’t as susceptible to the oiling issues as the bigger M96s.

It isn’t that I’m unwilling to do these things like modifying a car. I’m trying to keep my track budget in check and do more days and get the necessary consumables instead of having to spend that money on fixing the car all the time and on DE insurance. 

4k for an engine is too expensive when I might have to do that more than once. For a Mustang, for instance, I only need to buy subframe connectors once. For the Boxster, I don’t know how many engines it might take. And again Spec Boxsters are racecars. Engine rebuilding is part of the budget and I would rather do more events than more engines. 

I probably wasn’t super clear as to what my motives actually were and why I got rid of the expensive cars. I loved loved loved driving every 911 I’ve had on the street and on the track. But shoving all of that money into the car itself plus all the DE insurance plus all the expensive Porsche maintenance plus blowing up a 3.6L engine to the tune of TWENTY GRAND... that’s what put me the in the Camaro, which was mechanically super reliable but had mondo expensive tires and insurance and the weight made it hard on brakes and, honestly, it was too fast to be much fun. The margin of error is so so thin at those kinds of speeds and in order to play with anyone out on the track you need someone with a fast enough car and the skill to drive that car safely and quickly. Around here, at most of the events I’ve been to, that’s tough to find, and again I’ll stress that margin of error. In a car where I’m doing low 1:19s at Blackhawk, a tiny mistake has big consequences. And I learned this the hard way. So I have come to a place where I am looking for a cheaper, slower, reliable track car that is on pace with at least a handful of other cars out there that I can chase around and be chased around by. And I would way rather do an extra ten events than buy a motor. 

Is that a little clearer for what I’m trying to get?

I’m fine with Mustangs. I’ve had a bunch of them. At this particular moment there aren’t any near me that I could buy and set up for the price I have budgeted. Ditto 2.5L Boxsters. There are some GTIs and Civics and SRT-4s and some of the others I was asking about.

Basically all I’m looking for is next year’s car that might even get me to a couple of the remaining events this year. 

That makes sense, would have been helpful to lead with that.  I feel you, I've been through a few faster track cars and the cost and anxiety really goes up. S2000 was a blast, the C6 ZO6 that followed not so much.  First off, I just couldn't safely wheel that thing close to the limit.  But also I was worrying about the L$7 eating itself, oil starvation etc.  Current M3 daily gives me some of the same stress on track.  Conversely, 240SX track car is usually broken and I don't have time to wrench on it. 

I'll be interested to see what you get.  Looks like you've been through lots of different cars.  Any specific layout or speed really speak to you?  As things got faster and more nannied in the last decade, track day speeds have gone up and skill has maybe gone down with all the driver's aids?  That's part of why I sold my S2000, it felt like I couldn't play with a lot of the other cars on track in the intermediate group.  Going to a ZO6 was overkill and I realized I do enjoy light and small cars, as well as the convertible experience.  I'm personally thinking about an ND Miata for those light rwd droptop feels.  Trying to stay away from the further time/$ pain of getting into an FD or NSX project or a GT3. Someday maybe...

More on my experience with my GTI. It is rough on the brakes. I was cooking my brake fluid (ATE200 changed prior to each event) each time. We figured out that the traction control system uses an e-lsd utilizing the ABS system, this was not helping. The last event out, I paid special attention to the traction control light and did everything I reasonably could to keep it from blinking. I had also installed brake ducts intended for a Porsche GT3 (<$30 for a pair and zip tied to the control arm of FSI only GTIs). I could tell the brake ducts were working, after the longer portions of the track where I wasn't heavy on the brake or traction control I could feel the brakes coming back. Unfortunately, without paying for VCDS, I wasn't able to turn off the traction control so my brake fluid was still getting nuked.

I was running with Hawk HPS pads all around, Falken Azenis 615k+ rubber, and ATE200 fluid. The fluid would bleed out looking like southern brew sweet tea.

MkV GTI parts, especially performance parts, are pricey. If you have the money for that more power to you but I don't. With that being said, I could ride to the track with full AC, radio, CD changer, aux port, heated seats, and nearly everything I needed in the hatch and backseat. Mine is/was (it's in the bodyshop) orange so my gf liked watching the heads turn to look at the bright orange GTI. It was a comfortable ride up on street tires and a full weekend with spongey brakes on the track. The sponginess could be solved with the application of money but then it would be something else. For a track toy, personally, I would try for a MkIV. They are a little lighter, a little less complex, and the 1.8T is generally regarded as fairly bulletproof. Parts are cheaper and there is a wealth of tuning knowledge on the webs if you go back a decade or so so. If you want a GTI, that is. Previous generations are difficult to find and even more difficult to find in worthwhile condition.

I don't have any first hand experience with the MS3, just secondhand from my close track group. 4 doors and a hatch, lots of power, I believe they ship with an actual LSD, and they put the power down well.

I did enjoy having FWD on the track, just being out there for fun and personal growth. I tracked out with the throttle more than the wheel, my ass end could be swinging and I could still power out and nail the next corner. A couple times I hung 2-3 wheels off and kept pace, because the back is only along for the ride. It's a riot once you get used to it.

With all that being said, when I went looking for a track car I bought a Fox body mustang. Someone had done most of the hard (and expensive) work for me so I lucked out a bit. I like a more visceral track experience, I like feeling like I'm actually driving a car on the track, and the more plush new cars just don't hit that nerve for me. I also like having something different, more different than being the 3rd red miata on the left. For that reason, I was looking at MkIV and older GTI's and realized that it would be $$$ to get one where I wanted it so I had to shift mental gears. I tried to convince myself to get a 1st gen MR2 but that would be even worse on the wallet than a GTI. Same for a Fiero. Fox body Mustang was thrown out and it was all down hill from there. I would be happy to talk more about my experience with shopping for a Fox, or check out my build thread, but that's not really relevant to this discussion.

Im still sticking with Focus ZX4 ST. Its based on the extremely track capable Focus SVT(with a more reliable engine). Has an available aftermarket company that actively makes transmission parts(lifetime warranty on them too!). Youre a set of dampers, pads and LSD from a serious track machine. Buy one for $2500 or less, throw a $1000 into the diff replacement, $500 for the dampers and $150 for the pads/rotors. Change the oil and spend the rest on track time.

If we have to go for known track experience with the car, only under $5,000 E36 M3box ive had on track would be a 2002 Elantra(before my current Elantra chump car build). It was a total piece of E36 M3 but it ran, was cheap and had the full Tiburon suspension/brake catalog at it.

Thanks everyone. Currently, I'm at "berkeley it, I'll just track the Boxster." Going up to Road America with the club this weekend reminded me of how many of these cars are running up there. It was just such a shock to the wallet when the engine in the 997 destructed itself that I think I got overly cautious. This is what I bought this car for to begin with, and I already bought a whole bunch of the stuff I need for it, so let's just stick with the original plan. If it blows up, it blows up. I just really don't want it to. :)

In reply to Lugnut :

One of the great things about Porsches and BMWs are PCA and BMWCCA HPDES and races.