I still don't see EV's Replacing ICEs.

Aaaaaaaaand I've unleashed the lions.

I have stop thinking out load.

Matthew Kennedy said:

re: "a 60kw generator is really heavy", 60kw is 80 horsepower electrical, ~90hp mechanical, which is a Prius engine. Prius engines are extremely small and light compared to a genset on a trailer.

Prius engines are designed to make 10-15 hp most of the time, with the ability to go up to 80 hp for a few seconds when merging onto the freeway.  That's different from being designed to make 80 hp at 100% duty cycle for hours on end like a 60 kw generator is expected to be able to do.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:       I'll admit that an F150 is not a semi truck. Can't really haul a garage  efficiently. Maybe the garage should stay at home?   A trailer more suited to the load used?   

Preaching about people should change their behaviour because it doesn't fit your fantasies about EVs isn't likely to get you very far.  The topic was whether or not it was possible to do 100% replacement of ICE vehicles with EVs, and 3/4 and half ton trucks with enormous tow ratings over long distances are part of that 100%.

As for stopping to charge -- maybe YOU like to drive for an hour and then stop for an hour, but I don't.  As you said in another thread, you're retired.  I'm not, and when I'm towing my race car to a track the goal is to get there so I can race it, not to spend hours and hours taking in the scenery at every charging station along the way.  Food?  I can eat a sandwich while driving my truck just fine, thanks.  Bathroom?  Pull into the rest stop and it takes less than 5 minutes to pee and I'm back on the road.

Is a 4000 pound generator required?  I was going based on what I could find off-the-shelf in Google search.  The various towing tests have suggested that the Lightning (which, as you said, is not a 3/4 ton truck, meaning it's not ideal for an 8K trailer) uses pretty much all of its 130 kwh battery to go 100 miles.  That's about 0.8 miles per kwh.  If you're going 70 mph, then you're using 90 kw to overcome the drag, and the 60 kw generator I linked above is 2/3 of that and in a simple example would take you from 100 miles of range to 300.

As for what the minimum weight for a 60 kw generator would be, I dunno.  I'm sure that Generac is overkill, some of that weight is the trailer chassis and it's built to run continuously at max output for days.  OTOH a range extender is going to be expected to run at 100% duty cycle for a long time, so maybe not that much overkill.  Even if you handwave and cut the weight by 75% to 1000 pounds, it's still not something you'd toss in the bed casually.  This isn't a generator you pick up with anything less than an engine hoist.  It would need to be built into the truck, would add a lot of cost, and would cut significantly into the payload rating.

As I said in my first post, I'm not anti-EV.  I expect EVs could take 80% of the US passenger vehicle market without any government incentives at all, just because they're better at doing what that 80% are looking for.  But 80% is not 100%.

 

You are correct in that EV's do some things very well others not well at all. 
     So if the Prius is too small to run continuously how big would we need to go  to tow the garage effectively?  
      The LS motor is all aluminum and reasonably light.  If that's too big how about a V6?   Stuff it and the generator in the frunk.   Design it to supplement  the battery so that you can drive 3 hours  then pull in for a quick top up charge.    Tesla's can add 150 mile range in 15 minutes.  OK I know that's a smaller battery than the Lightening has but could we possibly get +100 while we get a bathroom break and lunch?    
     I know you can pee in world record time. But if you had a wife and children that 3 minute stop turns into 20 minutes.  Then the conversation about what to eat and did you see?••••
      I've been the single guy pounding down the highway, making time.  I've also dealt with it as the minority in the sorority.   You might be the worlds expert at herding cats and get them back in the car in only 10 minutes. But suffer for the next 2 weeks while they take it out on you.  The next time they just won't come.  

Tom1200 said:

Aaaaaaaaand I've unleashed the lions.

I have stop thinking out load.

No, this seems to be one place where discussions that bring different viewpoints  don't deteriorate into anger.  
      Others have said this. Use EV's for daily commuting and keep an old truck around to do what EV's don't do well.  Or make the truck a hybrid? 

What gets me is how folks will love/hate EVs through folks saying they are the only solution when they are simply a solution.  I want an EV mostly because I'm lazy and buying gas every week was annoying ("was" because WFH reduced my amount of tedious driving every week by a lot).  I'd rather just plug the car in every night when I get home.  But that doesn't mean I believe an EV can replace every car in my fleet for every use. 

If an EV works for you, it's a great choice. If an EV doesn't work for your drive, it's a really bad choice. 

I don't think it's that difficult or controversial. 

In reply to Erich :

Rant to follow

Edit: contextual rant, not rant in your direction

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Global warming is not a lie and cherry-picking a few facts that don't seem to mesh with the idea of warming doesn't change that. It's well-proven not only by mainstream science but by two independent research efforts at ExxonMobil and the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature project. The changes are also very tangible already in coastal and low-lying areas and areas that are vulnerable to wildfires.

There are people who seek unlimited wealth and power and don't care how many people they destroy to get it who you should be more skeptical of, those are the fossil fuel company executives who commission the climate disinformation campaigns, which is the only source that doesn't agree with mainstream science and those independent research efforts. That's what science considers "nonsense" and you should stop supporting it.

If you're worried about the humanitarian costs of mining minerals for batteries, you should sit down before you look into what fossil fuels have done and are still doing, it's far worse as a tank of gas is about 1/4 of a battery pack in extracted material, and cars need replacement gas after a few hundred miles vs. replacement packs after hundreds of thousands of miles.

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

Well said.  Much as I think an EV will be right for us in retirement.  I intend to keep my MGTD, 72Jaguar, racing Jaguar,  and Ford F150  not to mention 2 boats.  And my ICE engine collection 

What people think Lithium mining looks like:

What many Lithium mines actually look like:

frenchyd said:

     So if the Prius is too small to run continuously how big would we need to go  to tow the garage effectively?  
     I know you can pee in world record time. But if you had a wife and children that 3 minute stop turns into 20 minutes. 

I don't know what the minimum weight is for a generator of those specs, but it seems likely to me that Generac has thought about it a bit.  I dug a bit more on their site and found the spec sheet for that generator without the trailer (https://legacy.genconnect.generac.com/Media/vwDoc.axd?d=a9e9199d-4035-46f7-8452-2d210ed366d5), looks like the bare generator without a trailer chassis, fuel tank, or any noise damping is 2500 pounds.  It's probably got a monster cooling system, 80 hp cars aren't generally expected to make full power without 50+ mph air flowing over them.  If you're willing to give up the idea of running the generator in the parking lot then a typical pickup cooling system should work instead.  There might also be some weight to save on the electrical side of things, since you're going to want DC instead of the precision AC waveform that a $30K generator is probably expected to put out.  I have no idea how much that would save though.

As for my wife and kids, they aren't particularly interested in going to the track with me. :)

In reply to RevRico :

The problem with Cobalt mining is that you read horror stories about the mines in Congo where there is already known economic and class issues, but that is hyper-focusing on a tiny fraction of a problem.  The majority (actually 98%) of Cobalt comes as a by-product of refining copper and nickel.  So you can blame the Cobalt, or blame the poor souls living in squalor who are killing themselves to make a buck and supplying only 2% of the world's Cobalt.  Sure, there are pictures of people dying in cobalt mines, but that doesn't indicate a problem with global cobalt production.  98% of it is already here, safe, easy, no one dies.

Source: CI

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

The cobalt Institute, surely isn't biased, especially when they lie in the second sentence on their web page. 

Morocco isn't Congo, Canada isn't Congo, so they're lying right off the bat. Ah there's the mention, way down towards the bottom in much smaller print.

Frankly and bluntly, I don't care either way, about the people, the companies, or the environment, I just think it's obnoxious when people want to cherry pick to feel better about their decisions. 

I want an EV so I can deal with less humans through less gas station stops, have instant torque, and a faster path to traction with direct motors. Being able to bring back some old body styles would be a secondary consideration. Environmental impact is pretty damn far down my list of concerns when the military is a bigger polluter than most countries and companies in the world. 

So, to complete the analogy, this is the closest thing I could find to "do Cobalt."

What people think Cobalt mining looks like:

What it actually looks like for 98% of the world's supply:

RevRico said:

I want an EV so I can deal with less humans through less gas station stops, have instant torque, and a faster path to traction with direct motors. Being able to bring back some old body styles would be a secondary consideration. Environmental impact is pretty damn fat down my list of concerns when the military is a bigger polluter than most countries and companies in the world. 

We can definitely agree on that.

So I should, for the record, clarify my position on things.

The goal of polluting less is always a good one but I think there are multiple ways to get there............for better or worse I reflexively recoil from group think (it's just how I'm wired) and currently the EV bandwagon feels like group think to me. 

Lots of things can be done.....Keep your stuff longer (cars, bicycles, appliances etc.), this isn't great for the economy but it's good for the environment. Make an effort to use less energy. Working from home, even 2-3 days a week, has a big effect on emissions as well as making the roads a much nicer place to be. Get a 2300 sq ft house instead of a 3300 sq ft house etc. Again lots of small things could add up. 

Now back to EV's:

 I'd have no problem with a small EV for mile 20 minute commute.

For autocross I'd happily take an electric Formula 500 (not so much for road racing); to be able to just charge up the car and go would be great. 

Here's the long-game view that often gets overlooked:

Let's start with the assumption that harvesting and burning fossil fuels is bad for the earth.  To end humanity's dependency on fossil fuels within the next XX years will take *millions* of steps across every industry and every society around the world.  But one big step in that journey is transitioning off of fossil fuels for transportation.  The earlier we reach the tipping point away from ICE engines for road vehicles, the earlier we can devote attention and resources to the next big industry to solve for.

So even though to trade my current gasoline car for a new EV does practically nothing for the environment right now, or perhaps even for the life of my vehicle, it is one step toward the future when I am no longer personally consuming fossil fuels.  And the more people make the change to EVs (or future alternatives) then the sooner the phase-out of fossil fuels for daily transportation can take place.

In reply to Tom1200 :

We think along similar lines. I know you have had your Datsun for a while and my MGTD ownership might be making up for some of those cars I've worn out in a few years  ( back when cars were shot after 100,000 miles ) 

  I built my home from local materials rather than shipping wood across country. Plus it's Uber efficient.   The heat went out a week ago when the batteries in the thermostat died.  No heat since 7:00 pm and in the morning after -13 f night the temp was down to 67.    Perhaps you can alter your size limit to efficency and local content?  
    My shop has bitsa from junked cars I rescued engines from. And the challenge gets to see my best efforts at using that old junk.   I'll be pulling the car down in a 1972 car I rescued from going to the scrap yard. ($500)  I wonder if there is a class for tow vehicles at the challenge?   If you don't count gas it will be there well under $1000.  
         You make sense about working from home.  My wife typically travels 8 miles a week. She attends her local church via the internet.  

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

How do you ensure that 2% doesn't end up in your EV?  Kind of like buying green energy doesn't change the mix on the grid that gets to your house.....

You don't.  But improving 2% of the supply chain for something is a much easier task than fixing 100% of it. 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

How do you ensure that 2% doesn't end up in your EV?  Kind of like buying green energy doesn't change the mix on the grid that gets to your house.....

How do you ensure that your gasoline doesn't have some base stock in it from Russia after they have slaughtered thousands of Ukranians?  Or China where they more or less enslave workers under communism, or middle eastern countries that oppress and kill women and children in the name of Allah, or for that matter... Congo... an OPEC producer?

You're pretty narrowly focused on Cobalt but ignoring who made the gasoline for your car, or the fact that the majority of a lot of car components are made in third world countries by people getting paid pennies, or countries where there are no emissions laws which bypasses our need for a part while passing the environmental buck to the countries that produce it.

I get it.  You like ICE and you want to focus on the tiny fraction of the bad parts of EVs to make you sleep better at night, but your viewpoint is not supported by any evidence.  I respect you, but you're getting downvoted because you're expressing an opinion that you have generated in your own brain that isn't supported by any real-world facts.

So far you've responded to an otherwise sane conversation by calling us ignorant and using words like "filth" and "lie."  Not a good recipe for getting upvotes.

Edit:  I will gladly accept that 2% of the Cobalt comes from dead, enslaved, or oppressed Congolese people, but I also understand that likely 40% of a Kia also comes from dead, enslaved, or oppressed people.  And since 11% of our crude oil comes from the Middle East, I am quite certain that the gasoline that goes in my vehicle comes from dead, enslaved, or oppressed people.

Edit to add:  I also don't care where the electrons come from in my utility.  What I care about is that my money is going to a company who invests in green energy infrastructure instead of to a company that is more concerned about where they can get the cheapest natural gas.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Re Group think.  
     When EV's first appeared on the horizon I ignored them.  Not interested.  GM's EV1, I read the article and shrugged.  
       When the $35,000 ( cheapest) Tesla came out I talked to a new owner and he was bubbling.   OK I've met guys like that before.
      About that time Chevy came out with the Volt , Nah, I said;  said 33 miles and the gas engine kicks on?  
that's not enough to get to work.  
   Then it was 50 miles and I started crunching numbers. 
      It actually cost less to own than the Cruze ( ICE version)  OK but a gamble.    This magazine tested one and gave good reports.  I started to listen to others. 
  Turns out it's pretty decent.   About that time Tesla started raising prices.  So It was priced out of reach. 
  Chevy came out with the Bolt and bells went off.  It was a real money saver. Oops, contaminated Batteries but hey GM handled it. Owners got new replacement batteries 

 Local people who owned Bolts  were happy. 
      It's nice that potentially we can use local electricity without any transit loss.   All my life I've had good luck with electrical things. Every few years I have to take old batteries out of a broadband radio I got back in the mid 1960's. If I don't the batteries will burst and I have a mess to clean up. 
   I've got a fan from the 1930's. Ornate and cool. Still works fine.  
     Washer and dryer was over  30 years old,  working fine. New wife wanted her brand.  She paid for it.  It's fine now 10 years old. 
  Point of all of this?   I'm a racer. Things that save me money  for the race car and time I'm all I'm in Favor of them.  Commuting to work isn't fun. An Appliance works fine for me.  
   Bottom line?   No group think for most of the people I know that have them.  Its economics,  nice about the environment. But saving money is the real goal of most people who tell me about their EV experience. 

The real anti EV's misjudge that.