I still don't see EV's Replacing ICEs.

They arent supposed to replace all gas cars, just most of them

mr2peak said:

They arent supposed to replace all gas cars, just most of them

The various legislative bans on the sale of new gas cars starting in 5-10 years would seem to argue otherwise.

Have to say that the new Hyundai and Toyota semi truck fuel cell EVs look bad ass.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

mr2peak said:

They arent supposed to replace all gas cars, just most of them

The various legislative bans on the sale of new gas cars starting in 5-10 years would seem to argue otherwise.

 

First, nobody is coming to take any bodies ICE car.   They only want to limit the ICE cars to hybrids in the future.   So you can still buy and use gasoline in the future. 
   Hopefully once most of your neighbors have EV's you won't be so   Frightened of them.   But you can always keep your gas or diesel  cars as long as you want.  

stroker said:

My $.02--the whole EV thing is a scam.

 

For exactly what purpose?

mattm said:

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to frenchyd :

While you are looking outside the box, you are largely missing the box itself. Many of your examples are not priorities to most people. You recently used a Chevy Cruz as a comparison example to an EV car- a 2020 because as you said, it was discontinued. It wasn't discontinued because it was selling like hotcakes. It was discontinued because people didn't want to buy it. You compared an EV as an alternative to a car that people didn't want. That's not a great hook to win over the average person. All of you long range savings predictions are great. If you ignore the fact that most people don't keep their cars that long. They are paying the increased costs up front, with the promise of a payback at a later date. A date for many which will be long after they have sold the EV.  I wanted to buy a Lightning recently. I had cash in hand. I loved the truck, and despite it's range short comings,  it would have worked for my wife's commute. But the price was too high. The break even was over 100k miles. That is almost 7 years at your 40 miles a day. A problem for current EV's is that they need to be in a Goldilocks zone to make sense for most people. Too few miles, too little savings/ too long a payback. Too many miles, range becomes more important. Sure, there are plenty of EV cars with big Goldilocks zones, but most people don't want cars. Build a vehicle that works for most people, and it will sell. 

I agree with you that used EVs, at least desirable ones with fast charging capabilities and no battery degradation gotchas like the Leaf or other compliance cars, are thin on the ground and more expensive.  Most people buy used cars, and right now, highly capable used EVs demand a premium that can take a long time to pay back.  I am not so sure the same can be said about new cars, especially with the recent price cuts and tax incentives.  The average new car price last year was high enough that a Model 3 performance seems a bargain today, especially if you qualify for the tax incentive.  I will admit that I haven't been pricing trucks recently, but it seems like all trucks are expensive.  I mean, comparing a new lightning to a used f-150 will obviously extend the payback timeline, and it is a problem that there aren't enough EV trucks entering the used market right now.  When they do, the payoff math won't take anywhere near that wrong if the vehicles are apples to apples, in my opinion.

I keep forgetting that most people buy used rather than new ( since all my adult working life it's been new).  
     Typically new buyers put much more than 12,000 miles annually.  So 3 years from now FordF-150  Lightenings  will start hitting the ground  with about 50-75,000  miles on them.  

A friend of mine was a regular EV basher.  Mostly in good fun (our little group has/had two S's, a 3, a Rivian, a Volt, and an e-golf) but he was certainly in the 'not for me' camp.  He owns an F80 M3, E63S wagon, R32, and a supercharged Elise.  

Then he took a job that has him driving from central NJ to CT once a week or so, a truly hateful drive.  He started renting a Tesla 3 from the local Hertz and now his firm is going to lease him one.  He says the autopilot stuff is game changing in heavy stop and go and he never needs gas - range is enough that he doesn't need to charge it at the office and he just returns it with whatever charge is left.

The new EVs slay at long commutes.  Never getting gas is a big deal when you're racking up commuting miles.

mfennell said:

A friend of mine was a regular EV basher.  Mostly in good fun (our little group has/had two S's, a 3, a Rivian, a Volt, and an e-golf) but he was certainly in the 'not for me' camp.  He owns an F80 M3, E63S wagon, R32, and a supercharged Elise.  

Then he took a job that has him driving from central NJ to CT once a week or so, a truly hateful drive.  He started renting a Tesla 3 from the local Hertz and now his firm is going to lease him one.  He says the autopilot stuff is game changing in heavy stop and go and he never needs gas - range is enough that he doesn't need to charge it at the office and he just returns it with whatever charge is left.

The new EVs slay at long commutes.  Never getting gas is a big deal when you're racking up commuting miles.

I'm sure once EV Bashers  get experience  with them. And their fears are solved, they won't bash EV's anymore.  
     I sold Honda Civics when they were first introduced.   Just like EV's dealers Jacked up the prices for them to the point where I made more commission selling a basic Honda than I did selling the top of the line GMC motor home. ( it sold for $33,000) and a civic sold for less than $3000) 
      

Chris_V said:

People here talk about price parity for EVs. The Bolt EV starts at $25k, for a 200hp, 266lb ft of torque hatchback that has a real world range of 300 miles. That compares favorably with a GTI or MINI Cooper S, both of which cost more to actually drive than the Bolt. My bolt uses $6 of electricity to go 300 miles, while my MINI Cooper uses $50 of dino juice to go the same distance at current electrical and gasoline prices.

I've driven electric since 2013 when I got my Volt. At the time, right wing pundits and oil company propaganda called it an "Obama car" and made up all sorts of stories about them to denigrate them, GM, and the car's owners. Now those same people are saying "oh, plug in hybrids are what we should be building instead of BEVs" due to them still using gasoline.

I leased a Bolt in 2020 as a hedge against depreciation. Shouldn't have worried. Got to trade it in on a 2023 Bolt EUV a couple months ago and actually made money on the transaction.

Both Bolts have been used as daily drivers and road trip cars, having gone on monthly trips up to eastern CT from here in Baltimore, and also each one has gone to TN as well. In the 3 months I've had it, the '23 EUV has already been on a 700 mile and 900 mile road trip and will be heading back up to CT in a week or so).

 

These are not short range, close commute cars at all. For the price, they can't be beat. Quick, silent, low CG, comfortable, practical, and economical.

 

 

The '2020 Bolt range in the spring through fall:

 

I haven't had the EUV in the spring-fall yet, but it's range here in the winter:

 

I can tell you this, I'll never go back to gas for a daily driver. it's way too convenient to refuel at home and have the ability to start every day with a "full tank," never having to GO somewhere else to refuel. People talk abut gas cars taking 5 minutes to refuel, not including travel time to ge to the gas station. Well, refueling my car in the day to day driving takes 10 seconds! 5 to plug in when I get home and 5 to unplug before I leave for the day. That more than makes up for the one 20 minute stop on the highway each way on those aforementioned road trips.

Thanks for saying that so I don't have to. Everyone ignores the Bolt, or derides it for silly reasons. Indeed mine cost me a grand or two more than a similarly used ICE car, and it has saved me $6,500 so far after three years, but you'll still hear people parroting "studies" saying charging cost more than gasoline, or that batteries degrade, or that the payback is slow, or whatever. For those of us that can math, it works very well.

I leased a Leaf for two years, and it was absolutely not a compliance car. I saved money on that, too. The Bolt is dramatically better in every way, and it saves me tons of money.

In reply to mfennell :

Had a Volt, driven teslas, leafs, bolts and i3s, still not a fan. I think they are a ways from being viable for everyone.

The bolt would be a nearly perfect do almost everything car for me if the seat were 6" lower.  I know the cg is relatively low (pretty health SSF number actually), but a high H point makes me really uncomfortable.  They said it's no worse than my soul and I would gladly exchange that for a Bolt if if it weren't going to cost me 5-15k to do so.

somebody please please please make one with more GTI dimensions and put a Torsen in it. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

stroker said:

My $.02--the whole EV thing is a scam.

 

For exactly what purpose?

It reduces demand for fuel so it gets cheaper for people to drive expensive pickups and SUVs, where the real profit is?

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

 Even in areas that EV's are not good at ( long range towing)  there are solutions.  Stick a generator in the truck bed.  

If you do the math, a "generator in the truck bed" is pointless.  The size generator you need to meaningfully extend the range of a 3/4 ton truck towing an 8000 pound race car trailer is in the range of 60-80kw.  These generators don't go in the bed, they weigh over 4000 pounds.  They ARE the trailer.

I'm curious how you decided this is the generator it would take to run an electric pickup?  We have hybrid buses, straight electric drive with a battery and a diesel engine that runs intermittently to charge the pack. They weigh up to 35,000 lbs loaded, run 24/7 and have a much smaller engine and generator charging it. 
 

There is so much incorrect information about electrics from the anti EV people, it seems no one is interested in learning how they actually work. They're not ideal for every situation but they are for a lot of them, and the hate/rage they induce is very entertaining. 

stroker said:

My $.02--the whole EV thing is a scam.

 

That's kinda pissing in the punchbowl. Make a big claim - back it up. Otherwise you're hanging in close proximity to the trolls. 

frenchyd said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

mr2peak said:

They arent supposed to replace all gas cars, just most of them

The various legislative bans on the sale of new gas cars starting in 5-10 years would seem to argue otherwise.

 

First, nobody is coming to take any bodies ICE car.   They only want to limit the ICE cars to hybrids in the future.   So you can still buy and use gasoline in the future. 
   Hopefully once most of your neighbors have EV's you won't be so   Frightened of them.   But you can always keep your gas or diesel  cars as long as you want.  

Exactly.  No one has taken all the 100-year-old model Ts off the road yet.  If you banned the sale of all ICE cars today, you would still have millions of ICE cars on the road for a couple hundred years.  We still have carburetors, cars without catalysts, PCV, EGR, or shoulder belts.  No one is coming to ban your Jetta.

Think about it.  They forced car makers to adopt strict emissions laws in the early 70s.  Everybody said the same thing, but I have two cars from the 60s that are perfectly legal to drive.  They banned leaded gasoline on the road in the late 70s, but there are still millions of cars on the road that were designed to use leaded gas.  They banned making a new car without airbags in the 90s, but there are millions of cars on the road without them.

No one
is coming
to take
your ICE

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm curious how you decided this is the generator it would take to run an electric pickup?  We have hybrid buses, straight electric drive with a battery and a diesel engine that runs intermittently to charge the pack. They weigh up to 35,000 lbs loaded, run 24/7 and have a much smaller engine and generator charging it. 

Keep in mind that I was specifically addressing the question of what it would take to "meaningfully extend the range of a 3/4 ton truck towing an 8000 pound race car trailer", not just "run an electric pickup".

The F-150 Lightning (which, yes, is a half ton, not 3/4, but it's the closest thing to real-world data I can find) shown in a lot of the recent "EV towing tests" has a either a 100 or 130 kwh battery pack (I forget which test used which), and gets about 100 miles of towing range.  If you assume it's towing at a constant 70 mph, that's 100 kwh used up in 1.3 hours.  Simple division says that's a power use of 77 kw.

As a quick cross-check going the other way, my diesel pickup towing my trailer down the freeway gets about 11 mpg, or 6.4 gallons/hour at the same 70 mph.  A little googling suggests that the brake-specific fuel consumption of a turbo diesel is about 200 g/kwh.  A gallon of diesel is about 2800 grams, so that gallon gives you 14 kwh, times 6.4 gallons/hour is 88 kw.

So to the level of precision in "back-of-the-envelope math" those are about the same number.  If the truck is using 80 kw to haul the trailer, you can triple the range from 100 miles to 300 miles (which is about what I'd consider the minimum acceptable for my use case) by adding a generator that's supplying 2/3 of that power, or 53 kw.  The closest common generator size I could find was 60 kw, Google for "60 kw generator rental" and you end up with links to generators like that one.

As I mentioned above, the specs on the trailer-mounted one may be overkill for this application since it includes a lot of noise suppression and cooling hardware.  Then again, if you want to run it in a parking lot to charge your truck while you're taking in the scenery like frenchy suggested maybe it isn't.  I dunno.

I suspect those hybrid drive busses are urban mass transit that move around at < 35 mph and spend a lot of time stopped at traffic lights and bus stops?  That's going to be a lot lower average power use than pulling a brick of a race car trailer down the freeway at a constant 70 mph.

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

stroker said:

My $.02--the whole EV thing is a scam.

 

That's kinda pissing in the punchbowl. Make a big claim - back it up. Otherwise you're hanging in close proximity to the trolls. 

Funny, I've always thought paying gas prices fixed by OPEC and oil companies is a scam. 

"No one
is coming
to take
your ICE"

Agreed. If you buy a central furnace, the least efficient model is either 78 or 80 percent. But you can still buy a lower efficiency wall furnace. Why? Because believe it or not, Uncle Sam isn't always a jerk. The government realizes that  many of us are of limited means.  That said, there are a lot of inducements that the Gubermint can and will do. One is taxes. Expect gas taxes to go up. Expect more and better cash for cars programs. 

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

Yup.  If the government said I can no longer drive an ICE vehicle, I would be joining the protests.  On my income, it would be 15 years before I could afford transportation.  The economy would collapse hardcore.  All major automakers would declare bankruptcy and close their doors forever while Fisker and Tesla would suddenly be flush with a near monopoly.  Oil companies would hire hitmen to quietly kill half the government in a series of "accidents."

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

No one
is coming
to take
your ICE

This is a bit disingenous.  Sure, they're not taking the ones you own now, but they are taking away your ability to buy replacements.  https://caredge.com/guides/states-banning-ice-cars

Also, European countries are passing laws to ban the use of ICE vehicles in city centers.  That's not the US, not yet, but I've heard the idea suggested for NYC and SF, and it seems unlikely to stop there.  https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-07-26/fossil-fuel-vehicles-hitting-a-dead-end-in-europes-city-centers

So sure, you can keep your ICE, you just can't replace it with an equivalent new vehicle when it wears out, and there will be an ever-diminishing list of places in which you'll be allowed to drive it.

To reiterate -- I am not an anti-EV.  For certain common applications they're a great choice, and Teslas are selling like crazy not because of politics but because they offer things you cannot get in an ICE vehicle.  That does not mean they are the solution to every problem, and mandating them is going to be a problem.

Wyoming is trying to do a reverse California, and ban the sale of electric vehicles by 2035.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

There are certain people who  jump to the worst possible conclusion to exaggerate  the situation.  
   When the horseless carriage was invented ( introduced?) I'm sure there were people just like that saying much the same thing about horses.  
      Yet there are an abundance of horse in some locations so much so that ranchers complaints have caused horses to be rounded up  and auctioned off.  Doubtless some horses are  slaughtered  for meat.  
  But that is not because of  the Tin Lizzie.  
       I wonder how much of that sort of histarics  is started by the oil companies  looking ahead and realizing that sometime in the next 100 years  oil won't be such a valuable commodity  and with its decrease  in valve so will their decrease in power.  
          They must be doubly concerned with hydrogen.   Now that Cummins  has introduced 2 diesel engines that will run on hydrogen 

I wonder if more used evs will change the way we look at used cars. A low mileage gas car can be a good thing. A low mileage ev can mean the battery has been discharged alot & may fail early.  I guess as long as it is plugged into a low voltage charger that would act as a maintainer.  

Plug in hybrids still seem like the best of both worlds to me.  You can run on battery for daily driving, longer trips can be handled at gas existing infrastructure.  Some European countries & California ev plans only allow hybrids for a few extra years though.  I also saw some negative reviews on the new Prius because it was not full electric.

I hope gas can stay around for the rest of my life. I have nothing against evs, and think they are the best solution to some jobs. I don't think they are the solution to everything.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/west-coast-pipeline-leak-near-los-angeles-halted-gasoline-deliveries-several-states.amp
 

 A side benefit of EV's is less lunacy like this.   Though when companies abondon stuff like this no one cleans it up and then we all collectively are through the state. 
 

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2018/07/09/why-orphan-oil-and-gas-wells-are-a-growing-problem-for-states

first person to say "but the mines" will receive a life size version of the worlds smallest violin.