Wally (Forum Supporter) said:
frenchyd said:
What you fail to understand is the greater reliability of even an old EV compared to modern ICE. One very early Tesla model S has a million miles on it already with very low maintenance compare to an ICE of the same price and year.
Far more Tesla's have 1/2 million miles or other hi mileage achievement.
Again you're confusing Tesla and EVs. Find a post where I have an issue with EVs. I have a bit of real world experience beyond just reading Elon's press releases.
At work we tested a BYD prototype around 2011 for a few weeks. It was crude, as though someone described a bus to them over the phone, but the concept was interesting. It was quiet, smooth, and you could see there was potential. 2018 we got long term demonstrators from New Flyer and Proterra. Unlike the Tesla Semis these were fully functional buses that replaced the diesel engines with electrics. They did everything a bus is supposed to do, and worked very well. Like a number of other agencies we've been buy them since, and after some scheduling adjustments to compensate for charging they've been great. I don't need to be sold on electrics, but you'll never convince Tesla is better at developing, building and, maintaining vehicles than real vehicle companies.
Yes BYD is rapidly improving its line of products. They have several new cars and be of them is priced significantly under the Tesla Model 3 so it's outselling the Tesla in China. But globally the Model Y is the best selling car, EV or ICS ( American and European sales are offsetting Chinese sales)
I know the Chinese have some wonderful EV's. If they were allowed in America Tesla would be n trouble.
The trouble is the Chinese market has over 100 different manufactures and they are making EV's for Toyota GM, Honda etc. plus prices start under $5000 for a new EV Some of which are pretty well received.
But to stay in production profits are razor thin.
ICE cars are just sitting, not selling even at 1/2 price. That includes some legacy manufactures like BMW Honda Toyota etc.
In reply to mtn :
The not quite ready product is an odd thing to get a pass on too. Audi almost left the country over a couple cars crashing through garages, and Tesla lets the customers develop autopilot. I can't picture another company pulling that off.
frenchyd said:
Yes BYD is rapidly improving its line of products. They have several new cars and be of them is priced significantly under the Tesla Model 3 so it's outselling the Tesla in China. But globally the Model Y is the best selling car, EV or ICS ( American and European sales are offsetting Chinese sales)
I know the Chinese have some wonderful EV's. If they were allowed in America Tesla would be n trouble.
The trouble is the Chinese market has over 100 different manufactures and they are making EV's for Toyota GM, Honda etc. plus prices start under $5000 for a new EV Some of which are pretty well received.
But to stay in production profits are razor thin.
ICE cars are just sitting, not selling even at 1/2 price. That includes some legacy manufactures like BMW Honda Toyota etc.
I'm not sure where this was going, beyond electrics are selling faster in China which I don't think I argued against.
No we agree on that. Part of that is China has to import 80% of its energy. They are tired of having to chew the air they breath. Thus they stopped using coal as much as possible. And the prime source of oil is 5000 miles away. But only if Iran And Saudi Arabia don't decide they can't stand each other. Otherwise China's oil will be completely cut off.
As of July 1 this year no new ICE can be sold out n China and they have a lot of them sitting around factories trying to sell hem at give away prices.
So they are really behind renewables.
In reply to frenchyd :
China has a lot of oil interests outside of China and Iran, but I know you still think 10 isn't greater than 1/3, so no point in discussing that. I'm sure your unnamed sources have Chinas energy policy all figured out too. It's not like I've ever worked with Chinese engineers in foreign countries other than Saudi or anything like that.
China likes EVs for another reason, but that cannot be discussed on this website. Most people will lose their marbles if we bring that up. So many things that can't be discussed.
mtn
MegaDork
6/27/23 2:13 a.m.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:
I'm still waiting for a realistic EV minivan. Until then, no chance of an EV replacing my main ICE.
(six more)
There is the Pacifica plug in hybrid. I'm not certain I'd trust it.
Rivian has patents for sliding doors that are not related to their Amazon truck. So I think it's coming.
In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
Yes there are South American and African sources but they aren't exactly in the neighborhood. Plus Russian oil what they can get. A big enough pipeline from Russian oil fields to China is a decade away. And of course oil from the Stan's.
Even American sources. Plus a few local but not typically in the volume China needs. I know the Saudi's have worked out deals with China and are now taking Juan in payment. Which most of the world won't accept, ask the Russians about the 3 trillion Dollars? Worth of rubles they traded for Juan and now China won't take them back.
I did mention they were embarrassed by their air pollution ( well, I actually said they were tired of chewing their air). I guess you missed that too.
I think as long as it's called air pollution most people accept that it exists.
Nathan JansenvanDoorn said:
frenchyd said:
As of July 1 this year no new ICE can be sold out n China...
What??
Three reasons.
1. China imports almost all of its oil. 2. Their air quality is getting better since they've shut down almost all of their coal power plants. ( they've been buying Australian coal anyway ). And put up a lot of renewables. ( including the 3 Gorges Dam).
3. They have over 100 car companies . Many surviving by government subsidies. They are even restricting Tesla from expanding their factory, knowing that the Tesla is Globally accepted while nearly all of the cars they make simply aren't. Even BYD cars sold well the first month in Europe but since then sales have dropped to low double digits.
mtn said:
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:
I'm still waiting for a realistic EV minivan. Until then, no chance of an EV replacing my main ICE.
(six more)
There is the Pacifica plug in hybrid. I'm not certain I'd trust it.
Rivian has patents for sliding doors that are not related to their Amazon truck. So I think it's coming.
I have come around to the idea of the Pacifica hybrid. Initially dismissed due to losing the stow-n-go, but I seriously doubt any EV minivan could have that either, so... still... much of my want for an EV is to simply be "done" with going to gas stations (other than for the toys). While a hybrid will reduce those gas station visits, it won't eliminate them. Plus, there will still be the ICE to maintain.
I want an EV because I'm lazy.
Oh... and Frenchy - it's "yuan", not "juan."
In reply to frenchyd :
But it's not actually true. ICE cars will be on the market in china for years yet.
In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :
Tesla has a van ( not mini) on the drawing board but no mention of when. Scuttlebutt has it based on the Cybertruck.
I agree that an EV is likely a lot less maintenance ( at least according to my neighbors and what I read posted here ) But I think it's more than that. I think they will be more reliable and durable.
A very early model S already has a million miles on it ( only 2 sets of batteries ) and it's still running. There are tear down stories posted on the websites.
Plus with aluminum bodies I don't see them rusting away here in the rust belt.
And diesel electric trains get Millions of miles over many decades on the electric motors that drive them. ( most maintenance is on the diesel engine).
Finally if you watch the new model 3 or Model Y being made it's really a pretty straight forward assembly.
ps; the Model Y has an optional 7 seater? Oh and don't forget the federal rebate of $7500 plus whatever your state offers.
Colorado is $5000, Minnesota is $2500, but Oregon has the biggest of all.
In reply to Nathan JansenvanDoorn :
Did you miss the word new?
In reply to frenchyd :
I don't care about the number of seats. I'm not carrying people. I want the "van" part.
I'm ambivalent towards Tesla, but as far as an EV van from them - I'll believe it when I see it. Granted, I'd be more interested in one based on a stretched Model 3 or Y platform than on the Cybertruck.
In reply to frenchyd :
No. Your 'fact' is incorrect.
When not to buy an EV.
Don't buy one if you work for oil companies.
Don't buy one if you hate the idea of EV's
Don't buy one if you always buy a particular brand vehicle.
Don't buy one if you expect to be pressured or sold one.
Don't buy one if you don't like fast, quiet, smooth, easy to drive cars.
Don't buy one if you love driving in bumper to bumper traffic being forced to stay hyper alert or some Jerk will pull in front of you.
If you and your wife make over $200,000*you won't be eligible for the tax rebate * I have to check that amount.
If you buy one over $65,000** you won't receive the rebate** I have to check that.
If you always buy used you get a $3400 rebate.
Don't buy one if you regularly drive more than 300 miles per day and can't take 15 minutes to add 200 miles. I'm not sure if Ford or Chevy can take the max charging speed of Tesla superchargers.
Don't buy one if you regularly tow heavy enclosed trailers over 100 miles per trip.
Con Edison putting 11 Tesla Giga batteries in New York to help cover afternoon demand surge.
frenchyd said:
When not to buy an EV.
Don't buy one if you work for oil companies.
Don't buy one if you hate the idea of EV's
Don't buy one if you always buy a particular brand vehicle.
Don't buy one if you expect to be pressured or sold one.
Don't buy one if you don't like fast, quiet, smooth, easy to drive cars.
Don't buy one if you love driving in bumper to bumper traffic being forced to stay hyper alert or some Jerk will pull in front of you.
If you and your wife make over $200,000*you won't be eligible for the tax rebate * I have to check that amount.
If you buy one over $65,000** you won't receive the rebate** I have to check that.
If you always buy used you get a $3400 rebate.
Don't buy one if you regularly drive more than 300 miles per day and can't take 15 minutes to add 200 miles. I'm not sure if Ford or Chevy can take the max charging speed of Tesla superchargers.
Don't buy one if you regularly tow heavy enclosed trailers over 100 miles per trip.
So which one of those is the reason you don't own one?
In reply to frenchyd :
Seriously, what is your obsession with making things up?
New EMISSIONS rules go into effect on July 1st, not the banning of sales of ICE vehicles. And those new rules were announced in 2016.
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-implement-stricter-vehicle-emissions-standards-july-1-2023-05-09/
"China will ban production, imports and sales of vehicles that do not comply with the National VI B emission standards, which include stricter requirements on pollutants including carbon monoxide of gas and petrol vehicles, according to the statement from the Ministry of Ecology and Environment."
In reply to z31maniac :
Does any car meet those rules that isn't a EV?
In reply to frenchyd :
15 minutes for 200 miles? That's laughable.
It took this guy 45 minutes to get from roughly 32% to 90%, which put him at 230 miles of range for $23. That isn't counting the 15 minutes it took for him to find the charger that worked.
I can put $23 of regular unleaded in my Camaro and get 210 miles of range, and do that in under six minutes.
frenchyd said:
In reply to z31maniac :
Does any car meet those rules that isn't a EV?
Since we constantly have to educate you on your own claims.
From what I can see, anything that meets the current Euro 6 or US Tier 2 emissions standards will meet the new Chinese 6b emission standards.
https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/China-LDV-Stage-6_Policy-Update_ICCT_20032017_vF_corrected.pdf
mtn
MegaDork
6/27/23 11:52 a.m.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:
mtn said:
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:
I'm still waiting for a realistic EV minivan. Until then, no chance of an EV replacing my main ICE.
(six more)
There is the Pacifica plug in hybrid. I'm not certain I'd trust it.
Rivian has patents for sliding doors that are not related to their Amazon truck. So I think it's coming.
I have come around to the idea of the Pacifica hybrid. Initially dismissed due to losing the stow-n-go, but I seriously doubt any EV minivan could have that either, so... still... much of my want for an EV is to simply be "done" with going to gas stations (other than for the toys). While a hybrid will reduce those gas station visits, it won't eliminate them. Plus, there will still be the ICE to maintain.
I want an EV because I'm lazy.
True, I agree with all of your points. But if the lack of going to the gas station is a primary driver, I'd start tracking how much you drive every day. For my wife and I, when I did the calculations on the Pacifica hybrid, I came up with us going to the gas station about 6 times a year outside of vacation. This was all just conjecture though, we ended up with a KIA. My cousin has the new Jeep PHEV; I'll ask him how much he's filling up nowadays. He has a 50 mile round trip commute, but I'm not sure how often he is in the office.
Tom1200
UberDork
6/27/23 12:07 p.m.
My 3 car garage is my shop and it's primary purpose is to store and work on the race cars.
EV charging at home means moving the race car if I have it all apart; on the F500 I may be working on it 30-45minutes at a time in the evenings.
I could charge one in the driveway but I don't like the idea of the cord running out to the car..............and who's to say some mischievous teenager won't unplug it at 12AM.
I personally don't find the gas station to be a hassle...............there are like 7 of them on the way home. I fill up every 2-1/2 to 3 weeks.
mtn
MegaDork
6/27/23 1:05 p.m.
Tom1200 said:
My 3 car garage is my shop and it's primary purpose is to store and work on the race cars.
EV charging at home means moving the race car if I have it all apart; on the F500 I may be working on it 30-45minutes at a time in the evenings.
I could charge one in the driveway but I don't like the idea of the cord running out to the car..............and who's to say some mischievous teenager won't unplug it at 12AM.
The cables have locking mechanisms on them, so it should stop those crazy teenagers and their tomfoolery.
