I think I'm becoming a neo-luddite. (A philosophical rant about simplicity and fear of the unknown.)

I haven't been here in a while, but I had this realization the other day at work, and I figured this was the place to share it.

I'm a garbage man, and I was getting a dumpster at an auto repair complex that services a chain of used car lots around here, and they specialize in rebuilt wrecks (which are quite common here in Kentucky)

Just to the left of this dumpster was a section of the parking lot with a sign that read "major engine repairs" and had a handful of cars parked there. And most of them were late model cars, within the last 3 or 4 model years. One of which was whatever mini crossover that Ford sells (I think it's the EcoSport? That has the 1.0 Ecoboost that I think has the timing belt that runs through the oil sump and causes engine failure. Next to it was a Hyundai of some type. A friend of mine had one that windowed the block.

It occured to me that no one bought a car this new and expected it to have a major engine failure. I thought about the 3.6 GM engines that have timing chain issues and the Ford 3V 5.4 that have cam phaser issues and the GM and Chrysler V8 with cylinder deactivation that have lifter failures and so on and so forth.

It made me want to sell our fancy stuff and buy cars from the Bush 43 administration.

I had always been an advocate for beaters. I always thought of cars and trucks as tools. A means to an end. A way to get around, accomplish tasks, earn a living, and hopefully increase your quality of life.

I'm not a technophobe. I'm the tech guy at our house, setting up devices, troubleshooting issues, and I'm the only one who seems to understand how the automatic climate control works in my wife's car (that's a rant for another day.) However, I'm feeling the draw toward simplicity, and I don't know how much of it is me approaching my 40s, or how much of it is dreading future repairs and failures on parts that we don't even know are going to be failure points yet.

Neither vehicles are new, and they weren't new when we bought them. They are however both 2018 models and they are both GM products. Now, growing up, my mom always had a late model car with a payment, and my dad always drove a clapped out pickup truck with no concern about color, make, model, anything. So long as it was cheap and it would start and stop. That was me too, and I think it still is, I just got away from that.

So, in closing, I've got a truck with about 3 years worth of payments left, that I'm almost terrified of it, or my wife's car, having some sort of catastrophic failure. I find myself being drawn to vehicles that are 20+ years old, because of failure rates I see so much of across many different makes and models.

I think a part of it is a disgust with the rat race, and trying to make my life as peaceful as possible. Is it neurotic? Probably. Is it noble? Maybe.

My name is TRoglodyte, I have a 1973 Triumph TR6 for a reason.. LUCAS Looks pretty good to me.

My dailies are a 95 silverado, an 06 subaru baja, and my wife has an 08 mazda5. All are rooted firmly in 90s tech and engineering, and i can fix them.

I feel you.

My sister was in the garbage business and in the late 70's she scored a sweet 2-R Leach brass belt buckle for me.  

WTF - $165?

In reply to Datsun240ZGuy :

Those things are legendary. Nobody makes anything nearly that tough anymore. Between the bed or the truck. That bed and an R model Mack truck will outlive us all.

New cars are better than they've ever been, but things do go wrong and it can be really expensive when they do. If I had to choose between driving a simple, reliable older car vs. carrying a car payment, the choice would be easy for me. I've always felt like debt is a prison that you can choose to avoid. 

An additional thought.

That wasn't nearly as enjoyable typing on a smart phone. I think the click clack of an old school keyboard would almost be therapeutic at this point.

You're not alone, I'd readily accept Lucas electrics over DEF

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

Agreed

How much tech is there in modern garbage trucks? Are they gas or diesel? 

In reply to dannyp84 :

There's a lot more hydraulic lines/hoses than the old days but working on a truck in the summer sucks as they tend to stink a bit.......

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

New cars are better than they've ever been, but things do go wrong and it can be really expensive when they do. If I had to choose between driving a simple, reliable older car vs. carrying a car payment, the choice would be easy for me. I've always felt like debt is a prison that you can choose to avoid. 

Given that cars now last an average of 12.5 years, the longest ever, the new cars are more reliable than the simple older cars.  The real issue is that when they are not, the cost.

I love my old Alfa, most certainly.  But I would think many times over before taking it on a long, cross country, journey.  Even though we've driven it to Oklahoma and back for a convention before we got a trailer.  That's actually a bad example, because even though it's simple, the rarity makes it expensive to repair.

My Miata I keep for reasons you talk about- simple, cheap to repair- but it's got a lot of things that need fixed.  

The real thing is- seeing a handful of cars that are trashed due to reasons does not make them worse than old "simple" cars.  There's a reason there are hardly any old simple cars left on the road.

I've got to agree with the OP.  I'm a tech guy, but don't want the complexity and cost of the new cars.  I think cars peaked just before the introduction of "smart" screens and the proliferation of CPUs throughout the car.  ECUs gave us clean running, high horsepower motors that were mostly reliable.  Cars weren't distributed networked computers on wheels, and they weren't sending information about your driving habits and everything else they could collect back to the home office in the cloud. 

I think that cars now are generally pretty reliable, but it's gonna be interesting to see what happens in fifteen or twenty years when a random electronics failure takes the system down and major troubleshooting is needed.  There's a lot to be said for simplicity.

If you have internal engine faults on practically any late model vehicle, it's due to abuse, not an inherent flaw, unless there is a systematic fault present like the Ford 1.6 engine blocks (most of which are out of circulation now).

Also, there are a lot of old timers who refuse to do any resealing or other work on an engine with over 100,000 miles because in their opinion the engine is used up and not worth fixing, it's better to put another engine in it.  Because it wasn't that long ago that 100,000 miles WAS used up.  Now it's just time for your first set of spark plugs.

I feel you, OP.  Did the timing belt on my Fiesta on Monday.  I will concede that I did not have every tool to make the job go more smoothly, but some of the engineering changes that were made (stretch belt, main timing gear with no key) are ridiculous.  All with the intent to save the manufacturer money.  Cars are made to get to 150k miles (required life of all emissions equipment) and that's about it.  Once the car is outside of that 150k mile mark, it isn't the manufacturer's responsibility...wait, just the "emissions related equipment" is warrantied.  

Cars are made better than they used to be BUT they have a ton more electronics gear that is less "shade tree mechanic" diagnoseable.  The mechanics of the cars require more specialty tools to service, so you have to go to the shop.  Not because they manufacturer and dealer network has some secret deal to screw people on repairs, but because the dealer/shop has bought the tools and can do the job more easily.  

Your Bush 43 era seems to be the sweet spot.  With the advent of more tech in cars (by consumer request but generally by mandate), it's just a thing we're going to have to learn to deal with or hold on and keep throwing parts at our wonderful 90-00s era vehicles.  

Bush 43 = 2001-2009

Perhaps, join a group of us here who have found the Gen2 Prius ('04-'09)

Sure, they get 44 mpg w/o trying but that is my 3rd favorite thing about them.  
#1 is they do not break
#2 is when they do break there is no unique failure. 

Literally 1 million of these were made.  The DIY community on them is deep.  I have yet to have a problem with one that couldn't be solved by describing the problem to Google and then reading a little and/or watching a few videos.  Remember. these cars wer crazy expensive back when they were new.  Highly overbuilt by Toyota. Some 20 years later, Toyota now hybrids everything.  Sure, the system has been improved but the Toyota Hybrid system of today is really the same as the Toyota Hybrid of 20 years ago.  

My Gen2 Prius buyers guide

This is a topic I've had a real epiphany over in the last decade. I found myself gradually losing interest in wrenching. It had become far less fun than it used to. It wasn't that I couldn't learn/adapt to lots of new systems, but that I had to. The problems I had to fix were no longer just leaking seals or worn out rotating parts but all kinds of little solenoids and vacuum controlled valves that took lots of time to diagnose and even locate on the car. And everything was so tightly packaged I had to dismantle so much of the car just to reach things.

Then I bought a basket case Royal Enfield Bullet motorcycle as a project. A motorcycle designed in the 1950s and mostly unchanged since (until recently). And I found my joy again. I figured out that there was a technology threshold I was happy with, and if I wanted to remain a car/bike guy I needed to stay within that limit.

This begat the 1966 Falcon project I'm currently doing. What a relevation! Everything is accessible. It's all designed to be repaired by anyone halfway competent with tools. FFS, the HVAC system is controlled by cables! No stepper motors! Now, the entire car was worn out at 125,000 miles. EVERYTHING leaked, or was loose, or just broken. That was the expected service life in 1966. But the parts are cheap, and (mostly) available. Nope, no airbags or electronic ignition or fuel injection. But you know what? Once properly tuned it starts every time with just a bump of the key. The drum brakes aren't actually bad. The only thing that really dates the driving experience is the sloppy steering (just the nature of worm and roller steering).

A few decades later and my 1993 F150 Lightning has 170,000 miles on it with no oil consumption. The interior has a lot more squeaky plastic in it but otherwise the build quality is still pretty good. It's got an ECM, vacuum controlled HVAC, fuel injection and electronic overdrive. It's not been trouble free with the mileage but has never failed to function. It's failures are usually fluid leaks or occasional electronic ignition issues. I can still diagnose it and access isn't too awful, though it's getting more challenging. Most of the truck can be mail ordered if it isn't available at the local parts store. There are still tens of thousands of 1990s vintage F series trucks out there slogging through life. Newer trucks offer me nothing else I'd want. No cam phasers, warping exhaust manifolds or ejecting/stuck spark plugs on my old pushrod Windsor.

It's not that I'm opposed to technology. It's that a lot of the tech currently added to vehicles is stuff I simply don't need. Complication that is unwarranted in my eyes.  YouTube guys like Kilmer and The Car Wizard have shown me all too often the downside of the modern techno-laden cars that cost absurd amounts of money.  Until I get too old to work on my stuff, I'll happily remain in the pre-2010 era of vehicles if at all possible. 

See, I'm not that guy that thinks car should only have carbs, points and steel bumpers, I've never owned anything that *wasn't* fuel injected. I feel like there's a balance and I think cars from 96-2010 are right there.

I also understand that geographic location has a lot to do with what I see on the road. Here there are still tons of GMT400 pickups on the road. If you live up north in the rust belt, they have probably all returned to earth from whence they came.

Here, there are still lots of XJ and ZJ Cherokees, FWD fullsize GM cars, Toyota Pickup (pre and post Tacoma) that are all 20+ years old and still driven daily.

I also know that rural America tends to be more frugal and are more likely to keep older cars like that around for longer. YMMV.

In reply to John Welsh :

I have a similar view of the last generation of Chrysler minivans - the 2008 to 2022 style.  Are they the best driving or most reliable?  Maybe not... but they made millions of them.  Parts are cheap and any corner garage has already worked on hundreds of them.  For some of the common failures (like the silly plastic heater hose Y fittings) the aftermarket has upgrade fixes.  

Part of me longs for the nicer Pacifica Hybrid, but right now a stronger part of me says run the current van into the ground for the next 5+ years... 

Otherwise, I kinda agree about sometimes modern cars being too smart for their own good. My 2006 MINI, for example, currently has an annoying warning light for the hood/trunk being open. They are not... so it seems either one of the sensors has decided to flake out or the BCM is acting up.  Another task to add to the to-do list...  Makes me long for the classic Mini this car replaced... 

There's part of me that says when I retire I sell all of my newer cars and just drive my old stuff.  My 1992 diesel van being the newest followed by my collection of Triumphs from the 70's and 1980 and a '73 Volvo. Between the 5 of them, I should be able to have something to drive... 

I kinda miss wrenching on my cars... but what I miss is having a nice amount of room to do said wrenching. Basically - I miss my ex's over-sized garage.  Wrenching in my narrow garage with too much stuff in it just isn't an enjoyable experience.

I think there's room between being a total Luddite and being that person who obsesses over the latest and greatest thing.

Finding simple joys in my life is definitely something I've been trying to focus on recently, so I totally get the desire to seek out older cars that offer that simpler joy.

I made a post in this vein last year and not many agreed with me.

Im in the automotive industry as are most of my close circle. We tend to agree, that peak reliability happened in the mid to late 2000s, that can move slightly when you look at different manufacturers, but since then vehicles have become less reliable, which we attribute to increased complexity and chasing fuel economy. Ive heard this same sentiment from many many people in the industry.

Everything is a compromise, if you do something to increase fuel economy or decrease emissions. it will hurt somewhere else, it could be more expensive, add complexity, or decrease reliability. (We are all well aware of this compromise if you change fuel economy to HP) Law of diminishing returns and all that. The argument essentially boils down to "by the mid 2000s we had good controls over AF and good electronics to control a drivetrain (also an understanding and the tech to design/manufacturer aero, tires, brakes etc), and had greatly reduced emissions with relatively simple and reliable systems, and ever since, in the pursuit of the next 2 or 3 or 5% of fuel economy or emissions reduction complexity, cost and compromise has grown exponentially while gains have shrunk."

Quick examples are low tension rings, and cylinder deactivation (I can give examples of multiple engines made less reliable with one of those additions)

Some people misunderstand, im not saying old cars are "better" than new cars. New cars are far more capable and comfortable, but that doesnt mean they are more reliable.

I could point to the average age of vehicle on the road as evidence (not proof) , these 15-20 year old cars are more reliable and staying on the road where traditionally they would have been replaced, and driving up the average age. You could point to any other reason this is rising, including economic factors, and I understand that, its why i didnt say it was proof, just an example.

In reply to ddavidv :

Your condundrum is more about finding a vehicle that satisfies your desire and enjoyment of working on something vs. driving a car every day that you can rely on more often than not.  And a lot of people try to extrapolate that enjoyment of working on things to their modern DD- I used to, thinking that I wanted to work on a DD for fun, then discovered that trying to do work on a weekend when I *had* to have the car Monday morning ruined the enjoyment and made it a chore.

But if people don't need to rely on the car, working on it can be fun.  (sadly, I lost the sense of adventure taking an old car and thinking how fun it would be to drive and hope it doesn't break down)

I like small , simple cars. Never mind that my current toys are a couple of R53 MINIs and an ND-RF Miata. I feel more at ease with a good NB and my wife's Scion xB. I trusted my old Miata far more than I do my 14,000 mile MINI. It's not the cost, because I can afford to pay someone to fix them. It's the idea that I don't trust all the electronic geegaws that I can't fix myself. I saw a 2000 Corolla with 30K on it a few days ago.It's gold with a beige interior, crank windows, no infotainment, and 14" steel wheels. I absolutely don't need another vehicle, but part of me would go buy that in a minute if I weren't married.

Sorry, I like my new, modern cars. I like the comfort and convenience, the way it makes any drive easy. Not worrying about what I need to fix next etc. Just get in and go. 

In reply to Datsun240ZGuy :

And the maggots.