I think I'm becoming a neo-luddite. (A philosophical rant about simplicity and fear of the unknown.)

bobzilla said:

In reply to Opti :

so stuff built 10-20 years ago. 2004-2014. I can think of a dozen ailments in that time period from about every manufacuter. Honda transmissions from that era were junk. Toyota engine sludging. Taco frame rot. 4L60E transmission failures. Hemi rocker studs pulling out of the heads. Powerstrokes shooting flames and eating themselves. Jeep grand cherokees that everything inside stopped working. All mopar engines ending in .7 that weren't a hemi were trash. E46 cooling issues. Subaru head gaskets, ringlands or bearings.... or all 3 at once.

I think a lot of people are looking back at our past with some seriously rose colored glasses. 

Yes, older cars broke all the time. Broken cars have kept My family and I fed for many years. Im not saying older cars never broke, only that newer cars break sooner, and more often and are more expensive to repair.

I will admit that its relatively hard to track and find aggregated data, to prove my opinion, but anecdotally, most of the people in the industry, the guys doing this everyday, I talk to share the sentiment. 

There is some data that shows this though

https://newatlas.com/automotive/j-d-power-u-s-vds-iqs-auto-industry-quality-dropping/ Spark Notes: Based on JD Power - "New cars bought in the last few years have twice as many quality problems as they had in 2010. Some well-known brands are averaging more than five issues per car – and the stats show things will probably get a lot worse before they get better."

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2022/06/j-d-power-claims-vehicles-are-becoming-less-reliable/ Spark Notes: "J.D. Power has released its U.S. Initial Quality Study for 2022 and the prognosis could be better. Automobiles are reportedly becoming less reliable and more expensive. "

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/cars-keep-getting-more-expensive-to-repair/ - Spark Notes : Repair costs are up

Im not saying this is proof, but between data like this and what I see and hear everyday, I lean pretty strongly towards this position.

Like i said everything is a compromise, we keep chasing economy, emissions, power and technology. All of those cost us something, and the cost seems to have largely come at the expense of reliability. Hot rodders have known this for decades, once you hit the low hanging fruit, that next HP usually comes at the expense of something, its the same calculus.

In reply to Opti :

Most problems with newer cars on the initial studies are with the infotainment issues. Its been a thing for a while, and a lot of it is user error or something like an update. That's not exactly "unreliable". When Honda's infotainment went super fancy in the late 2000's for the acura brand their intial quality tanked (in comparison to historical) because no one knew how to use it and came in because "it was broken". IIRC they calculate off of created tickets for their numbers, not whether there was actually a problem.

Ranger50 said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Ranger50 :

He should report all of those failures to the EPA.  If they are that real.  People need to know how to deal with OEM's that are not willing to deal with the problems they have.  Toyota got in a lot of trouble for not reporting the 25- they paid $180M fine for not reporting.

(not sure if you are serious, BTW- don't really know anything about how real T-T is.)

Google Kia engine failure and the first result is a class action lawsuit site. I did see a 1.2 million vehicle recall result too.... but we all know what recalls really mean depending on the failure.

Yeah, about those horrible horrible Kia's that ALL die.... Still waiting on the first one to explode into a ball of fire and failure. To date, we've seen just shy of 600k miles(592k if you need exactish) in Kia's over 12 years without an engine failure. 

One issue I'm having is you can't avoid the 'bad' technology anymore. Current ICE cars are so focused on chasing that .1 additional mpg they are giving us tech we don't want/need. 12 speed transmissions or CVTs. GDI. Cylinder deactivation. And on and on.

We just got a 'new' Honda HRV (2017 I think; the car inspires me so little I don't even know it's model year) that is saddled with a CVT. Blech. But it's what you have to take unless you can find a unicorn manual 2wd model. It's a Honda, so should be reliable. But, it's got a CVT. Rolling the dice, I am.  But what alternative is there?  GM quality is crap. Jeep/Chrysler is owned by Fiat, and I've owned too many Italian cars already to know how that story ends. Hyundai and KIA are reliable unless they aren't, and then they need engine replacements out of warranty. Nissan...ugh.  Mazda and Toyota didn't appeal. And no way I'm buying anything European anymore.

Before a freakishly reliable VW Jetta (2.5, not the crappy 2.0) we had a 2010 Jeep Patriot. It was surprisingly reliable, but most everything that did break during our ownership was electrical. It kind of set the tone that, for me, I'd prefer any vehicle made before the term 'body control module' is applicable. 

If I need a $6000 scan tool to diagnose the problem, I'm tapping out.

bobzilla said:

Ranger50 said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Ranger50 :

He should report all of those failures to the EPA.  If they are that real.  People need to know how to deal with OEM's that are not willing to deal with the problems they have.  Toyota got in a lot of trouble for not reporting the 25- they paid $180M fine for not reporting.

(not sure if you are serious, BTW- don't really know anything about how real T-T is.)

Google Kia engine failure and the first result is a class action lawsuit site. I did see a 1.2 million vehicle recall result too.... but we all know what recalls really mean depending on the failure.

Yeah, about those horrible horrible Kia's that ALL die.... Still waiting on the first one to explode into a ball of fire and failure. To date, we've seen just shy of 600k miles(592k if you need exactish) in Kia's over 12 years without an engine failure. 

I dont know thats hes talking about all Hyundai Kia, most of the engine problems and lawsuits, stem from the Theta 2. A buddy was heavy line at a local Hyundai dealer, and he says 95% of his work was Theta 2 replacements, and he stayed VERY busy. A tech also got fired for making a reel/Tiktok that went viral showing all the crates of engines he had replaced. I like hyundai and Kia but the Theta 2 is a problem.

bobzilla said:

In reply to Opti :

Most problems with newer cars on the initial studies are with the infotainment issues. Its been a thing for a while, and a lot of it is user error or something like an update. That's not exactly "unreliable". When Honda's infotainment went super fancy in the late 2000's for the acura brand their intial quality tanked (in comparison to historical) because no one knew how to use it and came in because "it was broken". IIRC they calculate off of created tickets for their numbers, not whether there was actually a problem.

You are correct that the biggest pain point is the infotainment, but I wouldnt say its largely user error. Its not uncommon for actual failures pretty early, and the infotainment systems are now more deeply integrated into other systems. 

Opti said:

bobzilla said:

Ranger50 said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Ranger50 :

He should report all of those failures to the EPA.  If they are that real.  People need to know how to deal with OEM's that are not willing to deal with the problems they have.  Toyota got in a lot of trouble for not reporting the 25- they paid $180M fine for not reporting.

(not sure if you are serious, BTW- don't really know anything about how real T-T is.)

Google Kia engine failure and the first result is a class action lawsuit site. I did see a 1.2 million vehicle recall result too.... but we all know what recalls really mean depending on the failure.

Yeah, about those horrible horrible Kia's that ALL die.... Still waiting on the first one to explode into a ball of fire and failure. To date, we've seen just shy of 600k miles(592k if you need exactish) in Kia's over 12 years without an engine failure. 

I dont know thats hes talking about all Hyundai Kia, most of the engine problems and lawsuits, stem from the Theta 2. A buddy was heavy line at a local Hyundai dealer, and he says 95% of his work was Theta 2 replacements, and he stayed VERY busy. A tech also got fired for making a reel/Tiktok that went viral showing all the crates of engines he had replaced. I like hyundai and Kia but the Theta 2 is a problem.

I liked my Theta 2. MPFI version. Great motor, wonderful torque curve and tuned would rev to 7200 pretty easy. 

Hell, I remember seeing all the sludged Toyota V6's stacked up in the early 2000's at the sister Toyota store. literally stacks of them. Or the Honda transmissions we were doing at Acura. To the point that we had 5-6 on the ground at any one time for almost a decade. Honda and Toyota fanboi's don't like to talk about that though. 

In reply to bobzilla :

In reply to Opti :

That's what I was thinking when I said, Maybe I'm wrong but I think reliability has dropped in the last few years.

Anecdotally, my Son needed a truck recently and said, what do you buy, they're all junk? That shouldn't be the case when you're talking new or newer vehicles, but it's reality.

I have to wonder how bad they really are. Is it a case of the squeaky wheel jumping on the internet?

I have vehicles ranging from 1926 to 2017. There are Fords, Chevys, Hondas, Hummers, VWs, Suzukies, a couple of Mazdas, a REO, and even a Jeep or two. They have mileages ranging from 80k on the 1926 REO to well over 300k on a 2000 Suburban. Honestly, none of them are truly unreliable. Well, I haven't owned the REO long enough to know but even the 125k mile Bentley it replaced was pretty reliable. Most of them I'd be willing to jump in and drive across the country.

Some of them have been more needy than others but at 300k can you really complain if you have to put a $1400 transmission in it? 

In reply to bobzilla :

You are an outlier. Just like myself with the grenade prone due to factory underfilling 10r60 transmission, cracked cat pipes, cheap plastic interior, bsod infotainment system, leaking front diff axle seals, and exploded cv axles in the Explorer ST... crossed 53k a few days before saying it's been under our ownership for one year.

In reply to bobzilla :

See my experience is similar to yours. All the post 2000 Korean stuff my friends and family have owned have been fairly reliable appliances. 

160k and the Santa Fe oil Pan rusted out, 175k and the Tucson front sub frame rusted away, 70k and the Elantra has only needed brakes, the Tiburon was an exception because Brittany couldn't drive a stick as well as she thought. Even the Sonata was only replaced because it was 15 years old and Susan wanted something newer.

My mechanic on the other hand, is trying to convince me that they WILL explode, just a matter of when, and all I have to do to see that is look for the $10k used motors in junkyards because reasons. Except he's really the only place I've been hearing that from.

But he's also a hardcore Toyota guy, and I refuse to pay the Toyota tax. 

On the other hand, watching my friends Mike's escape blow a turbo at 50k and get refused warranty service, then drop a transmission at 70k has firmly cemented modern Ford's aren't worth the headache. He actually replaced it with a veloster turbo. 

We're actually shopping a Santa Cruz for the wife.

I wouldn't call a subframe rusting away at 70k particularly reliable.

My Soul has 150k on it and continues to work poorly.  Judging by a FB marketplace search, 250k isn't really an issue for them, but holy E36 M3 I can't picture 100k more miles in this thing.

It has some annoying issues, but they would cost a fair amount to address and after that I'd still have... a Kia Soul.

Hyundai/Kia have some cool, unique cars, but in the case where there is a Toyota equivalent, I'd likely lean that way in the future.  They simply don't make anything I'm interested in now, so I'm shopping mostly Mazdas and VWs.

My wife bought a base model Santa Fe because she felt all the fancy gadgets were just something that would fail at some point.

In reply to Tom1200 :

I ordered a '94 S10 Chevrolet Blazer and didn't upgrade the mirrors to electric for that reason.  

Probably a mistake but I don't remember it being an issue to adjust them by hand. 

That was one of my favorite vehicles - a mini Suburban. 

Ranger50 said:

In reply to bobzilla :

You are an outlier. Just like myself with the grenade prone due to factory underfilling 10r60 transmission, cracked cat pipes, cheap plastic interior, bsod infotainment system, leaking front diff axle seals, and exploded cv axles in the Explorer ST... crossed 53k a few days before saying it's been under our ownership for one year.

I would love to agree with you but I can't. Too many friends and family with them for the last decade plus to be able to. 260k mile Elantra with the Nu 1.8 that will grenade (got replaced because the teen daughter t-boned someone), the multiple Sonata's, Sante Fe's and Sorentos with 150k with no issues, even the used purchases have been trouble free for most of them. Maybe it's just me and everyone I know with them that are "lucky" or it's as always blown out of proportion by people that might not be bothered to actually maintain them because of their cost. 

FWIW, I've never met anyone with the perception that Kia/Hyundai is unreliable.  I've met plenty of people with the perception that they are crappy (which is not ungrounded IMO).

In reply to bobzilla :

Good for you. 
We will have to agree to disagree.

The problem I have with the whole Kia problem, is the parent company's attitude towards repair. There are no parts to fix them in the shop. It's either a reman or ultra dollar used pos. No 70% total out. No real root cause diagnostics. It's like they are trying to keep something secret. It's still just an ICE with all the same stuff everybody else has in theirs.

bobzilla said:

Ranger50 said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Ranger50 :

He should report all of those failures to the EPA.  If they are that real.  People need to know how to deal with OEM's that are not willing to deal with the problems they have.  Toyota got in a lot of trouble for not reporting the 25- they paid $180M fine for not reporting.

(not sure if you are serious, BTW- don't really know anything about how real T-T is.)

Google Kia engine failure and the first result is a class action lawsuit site. I did see a 1.2 million vehicle recall result too.... but we all know what recalls really mean depending on the failure.

Yeah, about those horrible horrible Kia's that ALL die.... Still waiting on the first one to explode into a ball of fire and failure. To date, we've seen just shy of 600k miles(592k if you need exactish) in Kia's over 12 years without an engine failure. 

I get three or four per year that come to me after they lock up on the Interstate.  They restart after they cool off but the bottom end is sending Morse code.

I will give them that they are extremely generous with warranty coverage.  If it's an engine failure inside the warranty period they cover it, no questions asked.

In reply to Ranger50 :

Honda was no different with their transmissions. Talking with their engineers they knew what the problem was. They weren't going to invest the money to fix it because they were changing platforms to a new transmission in 3 years. So we just keep putting in remans with the same problems over and over. Every manufacturer does this to some extent and they're all guilty of trying to bury it to make themselves look good/better. 

My anecdotal story about Kia. 

My son has a 2008 Sedona. It's a nice van. It Ran and drove well. It had a catastrophic transmission failure that split the case and dumped parts all over the road. At 160k, that's not a huge deal. Except for the Kia part. Without a core to rebuild, the transmission was going to cost $4900 assuming he did the swap himself. The other option was to buy a junkyard transmission for $500 and spend $3000+ to have it rebuilt. The repair was more than the vehicle was worth.

Compare that to the transmission everyone loves to hate, the 4L60E. Cores are everywhere and cheap. There are eighty four 4L60E transmissions on Marketplace within 60 miles of me. Rebuilds are $1000. My local transmission shop will do a remove, rebuild, and replace for $1500. I have 5 of them in the fleet because they really don't fail that often and they are cheap to repair when they do. 

My son's choice was to buy a 2014 Chrysler Town and Country with 120k for $7k. Unlike Kia parts, Chrysler parts are common and cheap. If anyone wants a fairly nice Sedona for cheap let me know, it needs a new transmission. 

New car reliability and old car reliability are not the same. I usually buy high-mileage, fully depreciated, used cars. 9 times out of 10 I'm going to buy American manufacturers. They are cheaper to buy and repair than any other brand out there. They are also no less reliable. 

This is my perception after 30+ years in the auto industry.  If you do bare bone maintenance a new car, it can and will be more reliable.  However, if you are not a GRMer, never check your oil, go extended oil changes with the last 5k miles being 3 qts low, it seems there is less wiggle room for neglect.  A 180 horsepower treefiddy with caveman valve train has more margin for neglect than CVVT VVT VCM ECT 490 horsepower motor.  Gotta keep fresh clean oil in the new one or it gets real expensive real quick.  Things are tuned more to the edge and the average consumer has no problem putting 15w50 dino juice every 50k oil change instead of ultra synthetic 0W12 unicorn tears.

All the engines that are famous for reliability like the 300 I6 in my van make 25-30 horsepower per liter, not 100-200 as is expected now.

bobzilla said:

Hell, I remember seeing all the sludged Toyota V6's stacked up in the early 2000's at the sister Toyota store. literally stacks of them. Or the Honda transmissions we were doing at Acura. To the point that we had 5-6 on the ground at any one time for almost a decade. 

Well, that describes the one wall of the Saab dealership I worked at. In 1990. I think automatics are/always have been a crap shoot. The slushbox in the wife's 2.5 Jetta was supposed to explode at any moment but managed to go 200,000 miles before we sold it (to another GRMer). 

logdog (Forum Supporter) said:

All the engines that are famous for reliability like the 300 I6 in my van make 25-30 horsepower per liter, not 100-200 as is expected now.

Lots of truth there.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

I will give them that they are extremely generous with warranty coverage.

You would be too if you were fined 200 mil for acting otherwise