Volvo 242!! You have an awesome livery selected for you already, they're reasonably light (2800 lbs or so), bulletproof engine to get you started with and then plenty of room in the engine bay for swaps once you get the need for more speed, hop up parts available everywhere, solid strong platform to build on, and oh so cool.
In reply to dculberson :
This thread has inspired me to put some more work into my 244 to drive it more this winter. I just need to order some snow tires and put an exhaust on it as the open downpipe is annoying.
You want something that feels small, light and nimble when you drive it, with a good seating position and visibility. Of course more power is better than less, but power isnt as important in rallyx as the ability to change direction. I would also look for something common enough in your area that used parts are available. Also a healthy aftermarket is a good thing to have. I would look for something with a factory limited slip, rebuild the suspension, and run in stock class for the first year at least. Then decide what changes to make, or dont make any to run in a lower class. Miatas can be really fast in the dirt, but convertibles do require a factory hardtop. Bmw 3 series is another good option.
pinchvalve said:Nothing valuable to add, just some inspiration. I'd find something like a Golf or 2.5RS Subaru with a cage already in it and go for it.
Just so you know, this is the coolest thing in this thread.
In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
Didn’t you rallycross your namesake, the Mazda2?
What about Lexus SC 300 or SC 400? Not manual, but they are well build, RWD, hardtops.
In reply to octavious :
I'd go IS300 before SC.
In reply to octavious :
I’d go LS400 before the SC, but that is because I’ve lost my mind. Just remember to weld the diff.
EvanB said:¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:In reply to octavious :
944- Having looked under one, I wouldn't. You want simple and tough, these are not the first one and maybe barely the second. Someone will be along to disagree with me shortly I'm sure.
I took a few runs in one at a rallycross and really enjoyed it. I don't know about the longevity or durability of it, the owner only ran it for 2 or so years before switching to a Boxster. I wouldn't recommend it for stage rally but for occasional rallycross I think it is a good option.
I wouldn't have minded continuing to run the 944, but no regrets yet about switching. And if we were starting from scratch we probably wouldn't pick it again. (Note the original choice to do it was more one of availability and existing knowledge of/stash of parts for the chassis) That all said, once we replaced the ruined shocks and ditched 400lbs of interior weight, it was actually pretty reliable. The radiator support is super flimsy and kinda low but that should be fixable with a skidplate. What did it in was the clutch finally tearing itself apart (rubber center was already broken when we got it) and in the repair process we discovered we'd cracked the torque tube bellhousing, presumably from dragging the trans on the ground and not wanting to go that in depth in fixing it. But most of that damage was likely done in stock form (there were noticeable wear marks from dragging the rear suspension arms); if we'd gone straight to modified I bet it would have actually held up pretty well. But as I said before, I wouldn't do it again and if you want a budget option, basically anything else that's been mentioned in this thread is probably an as good or better choice.
octavious said:I know RWD cars are not the best, truthfully they are probably the worst,
this is not a good start.....
just like other motorsports, rally cars run in classes. so RWD cars aren't running against subies. But plenty of RWD cars finish on the overall podium.....
so, my comments after yours.....
octavious said:I've been watching a lot of the old Group B rallies and I have a big itch to build a rally car. Those screaming motors flinging dirt and dust all over the place. drool...... I've had other cars, but never something purpose built and wild like a rally car. I know RWD cars are not the best, truthfully they are probably the worst, but for me it's about the build and having fun. I have some ideas on cars, and build plans but I'm looking to pick the hives brain before I plunk down some hard earned cash on a project car. I have money burning a hole in my pocket for a purchase right now, but I want to make a wise choice.
What I see the car competing in:
- Hopefully a $20xx challenge. I'd like to say 2019 or eve 2020, but realistically life might get in the way
- Local RallyX and AutoX - there is a difference between a rally car and a rallycross car - specifically cage, safety stuff, etc. Just to be clear ;)
- TN Gambler if I can purchase one cheap enough
What I think the car should have:
- RWD yes
- small lift likely "no." Most of the fastest rallycross cars are not lifted (there are some exceptions). Plus most older RWD cars already sit pretty high. Stock-height Miatas do fine, stock-height e30s do fine. Lifting a car that doesn't need it just screws up your center of mass. Remember, rallycross courses are made so STOCK class cars can do them without any real damage. Just get a good skidplate
- lots of lights I mean, nothing wrong with lights but for rally-x no need (few are at night), so it's just extra weight. I take most of my rally lights OFF the car for rallycross (only for stage rally night stages).
- manual clearly
Things I don't know:
- LSD? preferable, yes. RWD cars with open diffs will lift the inside rear and lose traction.
- Welded rear? in general, no, unless you can't get a car with LSD
- Turbo? very few turbo RWD cars do well in rallycross. Lag is your enemy. Heat is your enemy. Complexity is your enemy. Rallycross you can only use so much power in 2WD, traction-limited. a 300hp RWD car will not beat my 130hp RWD car in most cases.
- motor swap? depends on the car
- I assume easier to start with a running car? always
- roll bar construction? or kit? (never had one of those except in a Jeep) no need for rollbar for rallycross or autocross unless it's a convertible (with hardtop). It's just extra weight.
My skillset concerns:
- time. I can do more now that my kids are older but time is always a factor. My kids will help out when they can. I sympathize
- welding. I don't know how, but not sure I will need it. Avoiding a car with rust would be a bonus. really no need to weld unless the car is structurally unsound.... you will need a skidplate though.
- electronics. Maybe my weak link in car work. I can do it. I wired the 3.2 motor into my 911, but it definitly t akes me a lot longer than anything else. Which goes back to that time issue. what electronics do you need other than stock stuff?
I have some cars I like, but like I said I'm curious what the hive suggests.
for what you want to do....e30 and e36 are the easy button and very competitive even in stock form. e36s are cheap these days. Miata of course, but you need a hardtop for rallycross, which could blow your budget. Volvo 240s are solid though not terribly fast at rallycross without a lot of work.
Here's the entry list for modified RWD at our last event. This is one of (if not THE) most overall competitive MR class in the country in my opinion, so here's an idea of what cars are fast. Vaugn Micchie's Porsche 924S not shown since he's from New England, but it's also fast.
Also, I have a 924S (like a 944), and I woudln't rallycross it without substantial underbody protection front and rear. Vaughn's 924S is gutted and heavily prepped so he does well, but it wouldn't be my "easy button" choice, even if they are cool.
my rally car + my porsche..
@irish44j
Awesome info. Thanks man.
Just gotta figure out how to explain the 944 sucks to my oldest who has this hanging in his room...
In reply to octavious :
It's ok to love Porsche and dislike the 944. Lots of us do.
dculberson said:Volvo 242!! You have an awesome livery selected for you already, they're reasonably light (2800 lbs or so), bulletproof engine to get you started with and then plenty of room in the engine bay for swaps once you get the need for more speed, hop up parts available everywhere, solid strong platform to build on, and oh so cool.
Oh my goodness. That is amazing!
octavious said:@irish44j
Awesome info. Thanks man.
Just gotta figure out how to explain the 944 sucks to my oldest who has this hanging in his room...
I love the 944 and the 924S. I just don't want to rallycross one particularly. But of the 6 cars I own, and the 20+ I've owned before those, the 924S is by far my favorite to go cruising on a twisty road in, even in nearly-stock form. So don't need to explain anything to him, they are great cars other than VW signal levers and lousy stock seats.
A 944/924 would actually do very well in rallycross (Vaughn's 924S is the dominant RWD car on the East Coast rallycross circuit and was 2nd in nationals this year). I just don't think it would be good in rallycross *on your budget*
Vaughn's car is the ONLY MR car on the east coast that I know I cannot beat. Over the years I've proven I can hang with and/or beat any other MR class on this coast in my e30. But not his, if it's running right. It's too good, especially when it's slippery out. If he shows up at an event, I'm automatically battling for 2nd.
On your budget, the easy button is an e36. They can be found running and not rusty for that price, and in stock form they are definitely competitive in any RWD rallycross class, if not *the* fastest car (Miata or Boxster own that honor in stock class). However, stock for stock it should be substantially faster than a Miata on a track (and also, non-rusty Miatas with hardtops are pretty tough to find for $2xxx).
e30s are great, but for that price you're either gonna get an old M10 318, an ETA, or something rusty or not running. e30s cost more than a (faster) e36 these days. If I was building a NEW stage/rallycross car right now, I'd go directly to a 318ti e36, period.
side note: if you want to see what goes into rallycross, my build thread here (at least the first half of it) talks a lot about things you need to do, things that are worth doing, etc (later in the thread I convert it to a stage rally car). Later in the thread I also talk about fixing up my Porsche 924S, which may be relevant for you since it's mechanically a 944.
Since all the good suggestions have already been made, I'm going to say Fiero. Nothing seems to hang super low on the 4-cylinder cars I've seen in junkyards (V6 may be a different story) and they're a dime a dozen. The composite body panels also handle abuse pretty well and a rally-style Fiero would look totally rad.
Hey OP
You should tell us what's your general area so we can send you bad ide-GIVE LOTS OF IDEAS AND OPINIONS
+1 for the AE86 (or TE72 if you run into availability/budget issues) Corolla. They make a ridiculously-fun and very rewarding rallycross car that is easy to drive and tough to master in the best way possible. I genuinely believe it would be hard to outgrow one as an amateur driver/race engineer.
I rallycrossed one of mine for a decade and the learning curve continued upward, and it just got faster, but always with new (smaller and harder) challenges as I got the car and myself better dialed in.
Whichever platform you choose, plan on spending the bulk of your efforts and money on suspension and tires, and don't sweat anything else (other than reliability) until much later. On our local courses I found that snows and all seasons were leagues behind real rally tires, for grip, wear, and resistance to de-beading. Do your own testing, but don't be surprised if stock-ish ride height works well. Bushings, dampers, and a good differential are most important. On the Corolla I settled on springs just a skosh stiffer than stock. You probably won't need big swaybars, and might even try it without, particularly for smaller RWD cars. IME, a welded diff/spool doesn't compare than a good LSD. As a finesse driver who strives for smoothness, on grippier courses the spool increased understeer until getting a little hamfisted, then doooorifutoo too sideways and killed the speed. Maybe I'm lacking talent, and a good limited slip helped in that department. With our local rules, aftermarket diff and rally tires put me into a modified class, but I still had fun and was moderately competitive with somewhere around 95whp and 2250ish pounds.
Have fun; nothing quite as fun as making a light rear-driver dance on a loose surface. Drop the throttle coming in, kicking the back end out, then just a touch of oversteer and a little rear-wheel bleed through the corner, with increasing grip/rear weight transfer/speed until you feel the car 'catching up' to the rear wheels (so to speak) at corner exit and smoothly off to the next one to repeat!
A few photos for for further inspiration:
I’m in Knoxville TN. I drove to ATL for my current DD. And I am scheduled travel to DC, Norfolk, and Jacksonville the upcoming months.
octavious said:I’m in Knoxville TN. I drove to ATL for my current DD. And I am scheduled travel to DC, Norfolk, and Jacksonville the upcoming months.
Which means you will be running with ETR SCCA. Which is my local region whenever I get a car.
In the RWD classes there it is a 4th gen LS Z28 Camaro that is the fastest SR car and usually 2nd FOD raw in all classes.
RWD then has 7-10 miatas, a Volvo 240 and a new edge mustang.
TBH for where etr runs and the elevation changes they have more power is better. So something like a 350z, ls Camaro, etc.
Join the etrscca and rallycross Knox Facebook pages and look at the past results. Last year it was all that 4th gen fbody wiping the floor with everyone.
Also etr tends to run long courses
Rally Fiero! Great Idea!!!
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