In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :
For what it's worth, Audi had carbon fiber driveshafts on some of their cars in 1990-1991 era. Their ProConTen system used the engine getting pushed back in the chassis to tension the seat belts and pull the steering wheel away from the driver, via an intricate series of cables and pullies. Since this required the drivetrain to move, they needed a driveshaft that could break under compression, thus carbon fiber.
I think the more expensive cars got airbags 
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:
MotorsportsGordon said:
You may remember that a few years ago the nascar/grandam singed a deal with dtm to develop a North American series for class 1 cars. I wonder if It could now go the other way and dtm adopt nascars new gen 7 car
Didn't it also include a series in Japan? Once I heard IMSA was going to drop the DP cars, that whole thing just petered out, which was kind of sad. Then again, having all the cars be the same other than the stickers, well..... It kind of works for open wheel cars, it less works for ensurance racing- but I don't see it working at all when the different manufacturers are supposed to be racing each other.
I think it was supposed to be a separate series from the sports car series. Now super gt does have endurance racing but dtm is sprint races.
This is tough. DTM is a good series with solid drivers and cool cars. But it's an expensive formula, and no one seems to want to pay for it.
SuperGT works because the manufacturers band together and put a lot of time and money into promoting the series and keeping it sustainable. When the other manufacturers get themselves into trouble (e.g. Honda in 2014 when they built that disastrous NSX Concept-GT Hybrid) they'll voluntarily slow development or give them rules concessions to make sure no one drops out.
Plus they have a healthy 2nd tier class for semi-works outfits and rich privateers that keeps the field looking very healthy. SuperGT actually has fewer cars in its top tier class than the DTM. But because they run 25-35 GT300 cars at the same time, the fields look enormous.
DTM is basically the opposite of this. The manufacturers don't talk to each other and the series actively chased away smaller privateers in a baffling decision to "improve driver quality." Unless the big name German-market manfuacturers suddenly do an about-face and decide that they want to keep the series alive, I don't see how they are going to be able to continue in their current form.
In reply to boxedfox (Forum Supporter) :
Great post. Thx.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
In the (insert decade) they also raced homologation specials, so you could at least pretend that you could buy an (insert car) or (insert car) like you watched race. Now, it's the same generic boring tube frame silhouettes that share nothing with a production car other than the manufacturer's logo.
I adapted that for you. Seems to be a common thread in automotive racing.
noddaz
That would suck, but I don't even know how to watch DTM anymore.
Do I need a specific package off the intertubes, like you do for Aussie Supercars?
It looks like this pandemic is showing that too many of us, personally and businesses/organizations have been operating to close to the limit for too long.
So based on this thread I sought out some 2019 DTM on You Tube. Snooozzzzzz, I managed 3 laps before looking for some old BTCC instead. Sorry, but in it's current form it needs to reinvent or euthanize itself.
DTM ran an event last year with SGT in Fuji; however, their plans for 2020 were murky.
I think DTM will have to utilize this downtime to figure out how to restructure and make the series appealing to a broader audience of participants. Moving back towards a production car series would be nice but lets be honest, that won't happen. My assessment is that they likely will fold up or come back with a DTM-e series similar to Formula-E since laptop battery powered cars are the thing now.
DirtyBird222 said:
DTM ran an event last year with SGT in Fuji; however, their plans for 2020 were murky.
I think DTM will have to utilize this downtime to figure out how to restructure and make the series appealing to a broader audience of participants. Moving back towards a production car series would be nice but lets be honest, that won't happen. My assessment is that they likely will fold up or come back with a DTM-e series similar to Formula-E since laptop battery powered cars are the thing now.
Oh man, you may be right, but that would be a travesty.
I like the idea of bringing the cars back closer to reality. We have the knowledge and tech to make them safe......as safe as driving 150 mph can be, I guess.
But the "win on sunday, sell on Monday" seems difficult when the cars aren't even tangetially related.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Generation_Touring_Car
current btcc cars
when dtm was resurrected in 2000 they used tube frame chassis
In reply to MotorsportsGordon :
I feel like the BTCC NGTC rules nailed the sweet spot between cost effectiveness, marketability, and entertainment.
The teams like it because any reasonably competent independent team with a TCR-level budget can jump in, put a road car body on a car and go racing.
The manufacturers like it because things like the front and rear suspension are standardized and they can run the spec engine if they don't feel like spending the money to build their own. Plus the cars are aesthetically so close to a tuned version of their roadgoing cars so they can pretend that the road cars have sporting credentials.
The fans love it because the cars are so close performance wise (and so cheap to repair), that the drivers can race with their elbows out all the time. Plus the cars can be repaired quickly, so even if someone gets spun off into the barriers they can quickly patch it together and be back on the grid for race 2.
The only thing they're really missing compared to other top level national series is outright speed.
MotorsportsGordon said:
Photoshop?
The wide flat sides that square off at the back, the relatively high profile tires, the spoiler... Those like modern NASCAR with a German accent
So lets pretend that DTM goes WAY back in fabrication tech. And we come up with a 3 way partnership between NASCAR, Aussie Super Cars, and DTM. Just use totally different (and applicable) powertrains.
That would be interesting.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:
So lets pretend that DTM goes WAY back in fabrication tech. And we come up with a 3 way partnership between NASCAR, Aussie Super Cars, and DTM. Just use totally different (and applicable) powertrains.
That would be interesting.
It wouldn't be that way back when dtm was relaunched in 2000 it was with tube frame chassis.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
MotorsportsGordon said:
Photoshop?
The wide flat sides that square off at the back, the relatively high profile tires, the spoiler... Those like modern NASCAR with a German accent
Yeah photoshop on Facebook
Yeah, when you go global.....there are WAY too many VERY similar classes that can't race together.
It would be great if there were less series, more homogenized so let's say your sponsors want some American, or European exposure........you can just go race there.
MotorsportsGordon said:
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:
So lets pretend that DTM goes WAY back in fabrication tech. And we come up with a 3 way partnership between NASCAR, Aussie Super Cars, and DTM. Just use totally different (and applicable) powertrains.
That would be interesting.
It wouldn't be that way back when dtm was relaunched in 2000 it was with tube frame chassis.
Was not aware of that! Interesting.
BTW, the idea was not for the cars to race together, just so share cheap manufacturing techniques. Since NASCAR and Aussie V8s' are mostly the same car, it would be pretty easy to have 90% idential chassis- with changes for what suspension each series wants. Getting rid of the CF chassis would be a huge cost save (at least until someone finally comes up with a way to serial make that style of chassis for hundreds of thousands of chassis per year).
It's not as if the fans can really tell what is under the skin, anyway.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:
MotorsportsGordon said:
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:
So lets pretend that DTM goes WAY back in fabrication tech. And we come up with a 3 way partnership between NASCAR, Aussie Super Cars, and DTM. Just use totally different (and applicable) powertrains.
That would be interesting.
It wouldn't be that way back when dtm was relaunched in 2000 it was with tube frame chassis.
Was not aware of that! Interesting.
BTW, the idea was not for the cars to race together, just so share cheap manufacturing techniques. Since NASCAR and Aussie V8s' are mostly the same car, it would be pretty easy to have 90% idential chassis- with changes for what suspension each series wants. Getting rid of the CF chassis would be a huge cost save (at least until someone finally comes up with a way to serial make that style of chassis for hundreds of thousands of chassis per year).
It's not as if the fans can really tell what is under the skin, anyway.
The formula then was 4 litre flat crank v8s.
opel raced the Astra which ofcourse is a fwd compact
In reply to MotorsportsGordon :
That looks like those Bergrennen boring-to-watch hillclimb cars that have all sorts of aero-looking things stuck on the car, and it looks like the cars are going walking speed because the suspension doesn't move and the tires have no slip angle.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Relative to costs, it's still a huge step forward. I think your line of aero concerns would be #2- do some studies to figure out what consusmers see as the definition of a DTM car (like the wing vs spoiler for NASCAR). WIth that, allow those aero features, but simplified enough to 1) not cost a bunch to develop, and 2) to not create an aero hole to allow racing.
One interesting side note in racing was a circle track race for Indycar a few years ago. IIRC, there was a really bad accident on one of those 1mile super speedways, and the teams agreed to run the actual super speedway aero package. The result was not nearly as tightly packed racing, but the actual racing was better- cars could be tuned to be fast on new OR old tires, but nobody figured out both. Which meant there was real racing.
That was really fun to watch- reminded me of some of the highlight races in F1 where cars would storm out into a lead, and then as the cars age, the whole field changed. That's a feature we all need back.
Some of those Bergrennen hillclimb cars are retired DTM or GT3. I've been in touch with a few owners/drivers. They said the biggest change was revising the gearing. The Z4 race car could be had with two different engines both making ~500hp; one with a 7500 limit (GTE) and the other with 9000 (GT3).
z31maniac said:
DirtyBird222 said:
DTM ran an event last year with SGT in Fuji; however, their plans for 2020 were murky.
I think DTM will have to utilize this downtime to figure out how to restructure and make the series appealing to a broader audience of participants. Moving back towards a production car series would be nice but lets be honest, that won't happen. My assessment is that they likely will fold up or come back with a DTM-e series similar to Formula-E since laptop battery powered cars are the thing now.
Oh man, you may be right, but that would be a travesty.
I like the idea of bringing the cars back closer to reality. We have the knowledge and tech to make them safe......as safe as driving 150 mph can be, I guess.
But the "win on sunday, sell on Monday" seems difficult when the cars aren't even tangetially related.
I mean if you look at the current German automotive market trends it's pointing in that direction. Porsche Taycan, Audi E-trons, BMW XXXe, Mercedes big ass screamin bald eagle V8, etc.
It would be a travesty if DTM went to the TCR formula as well. Boring cars that are so similar in engine and chassis it's honestly difficult for the common non car going person to tell them apart. I really would like to see series like the IMSA Michilin Pilot series to go back to actual production bodied cars like they were 10 years ago in GS and ST - you know when they had 50-70 car fields because teams and shops could build their own cars. DTM could benefit from going bcak to the prodution body class as well.
In reply to DirtyBird222 :
A transition to TCR or GT3 rules would be further complicated by the fact that there are already established racing series that follow those rulesets in Germany.
Apparently the ITR leadership is thinking about falling back on their old Plan B, which is to use the GTE ruleset, as Strike_Zero and Adrian_Thompson suggested. Car-wise it kind of makes sense, as the GTE cars are significantly faster than their GT3 cousins while retaining much of the road cars' features. Plus there are lots of other cool GTE cars that the BMWs could compete against (including a bunch of privateer Porsches that would probably enter just to run in a top-tier sprint race series).
It would just be super awkward for BMW because they literally just mothballed their full-time WEC GTE program so they could concentrate on DTM.
