There has been a lot of discussion on this back and forth over the years, but I am not aware of a current ruling.
I say a dyno is a tool I lease that is not attached to the car, as long as I do the tuning, not a Pro. If a Pro does the tuning, it's billable at his rate.
What says GRM?
I would say this....
If you owned the Dyno, then have at it. You do not have to put in the tools to build the car.
If you are paying for it by the hour, well then you may have to take that into account.
Hmmmmm I see where you are going, just not sure the correct way to look at it. If you take a car to a track to tune it, you dont put in the cost of entry and such.
Another words, yea, if you tune it, well then good job.
Does an alignment count towards the budget? What about registration(if the car is street legal)? Just being the devils advocate.......
Even if the dyno rental costs count toward the budget, you can probably get a good bit done in an hour for $100 or so.
It seems a bit perverse to say that you could (in theory) spend $20K to buy a dyno and do as much dyno tuning as you wanted without it appearing in the budget, but if you rent someone else's then you have to account for it.
In reply to SVreX:
I basically agree with your notion, but it could be a slippery slope. Are we talking about 3 or 4 pulls, or a whole day. Is there an expert tuner standing over your shoulder nodding yes or no as you tweek the tables?
What happens in Georgia stays in Georgia.
codrus wrote: It seems a bit perverse to say that you could (in theory) spend $20K to buy a dyno and do as much dyno tuning as you wanted without it appearing in the budget, but if you rent someone else's then you have to account for it.
This.
HappyAndy wrote: In reply to SVreX: I basically agree with your notion, but it could be a slippery slope. Are we talking about 3 or 4 pulls, or a whole day. Is there an expert tuner standing over your shoulder nodding yes or no as you tweek the tables?
I don't think it should matter how much time you spend with it. There's no difference between using a welder to patch a couple of panels vs reworking the entire structure of the car to fit a different engine, right?
As for the tuner -- it depends on why he's doing it. IMHO If he works for the shop and his wages are paid for out of your hourly rental fee then you're paying for him. If he's a buddy helping you because it's a cool car then that's no different from a buddy who's helping you turn wrenches.
So, I can tune at the track, but if I don't OWN the track, I have to put it in my budget??
So, I can ask professionals on this site like Keith Tanner or Matt Cramer for advice, but if I am in the same room with them it goes in my budget??
I don't think some of you are thinking this through.
Carry on...
You wouldn't put entry fees for a drag strip in the budget, would you? Not having a horse in this race, I'd say it's a tool. If you were paying someone to tune it (and similarly, if you were to pay someone to run it at a drag strip and do some tuning), then I'd think it would need to be accounted for.
Can I rent a machine shop and do a complete engine rebuild ,as long as I supply the labour? Seems like a slippery slope, although I accept that I can buy any tool I need to build my Challenge car. Those with a hoist, welders, brakes and shears have a leg up on the rest of us. I think you should buy a portable dyno and have it behind the hotel next fall.
codrus wrote: It seems a bit perverse to say that you could (in theory) spend $20K to buy a dyno and do as much dyno tuning as you wanted without it appearing in the budget...
Yes, sometimes things are a bit warped or perverse in Challenge math...
I have "free" poly suspension bushings in my car which were made from a bathroom partition after buying a machine lathe to make them and spending nearly a week making them. 
I'd say: track is a tool, cresent wrench is a tool, dyno is a tool. Whether I own, borrow, or rent the tool shouldn't matter.
Another example: if I go to Taylor Rental and rent an engine hoist to work on the car, i wouldn't expect that expense to have to be accounted for as part of the build cost.
If I work at a shop, and we have a dyno, and I use it, I wouldn't expect to add the hourly shop rate for the dyno time to the build.
Carry on.
I'm gonna let you guys keep going, basically because it will be amusing.
I do, however, hope GRM staff will weigh in on this. I think the correct answer will ultimately have to be a decree from them, because there are too many ways to argue this or justify it.
I would like to suggest that encouraging dyno time would be a nice step toward encouraging people to put more effort into prep, and that dyno time would certainly improve the editorial content generated.
Maybe it would be appropriate to have a fixed fee in the budget that is equal to anyone?
Perhaps we could just have another event at the Challenge dragging 500 lb chunks of concrete 100 yds ala tractor pull. 
SVreX wrote: Perhaps we could just have another event at the Challenge dragging 500 lb chunks of concrete 100 yds ala tractor pull.
Why have another event? Just combine it with the autocross portion! Any cones that you hit with the concrete count double.
codrus wrote:SVreX wrote: Perhaps we could just have another event at the Challenge dragging 500 lb chunks of concrete 100 yds ala tractor pull.Why have another event? Just combine it with the autocross portion! Any cones that you hit with the concrete count double.
Do it NASCAR RV grounds style. Line up the two competitors rear to rear, chain 'em up and let'r rip!
On the tuner over the shoulder while on the dyno question, it seems to me there's a difference between asking a pro for general tuning advice, which you can then use to tune yourself vs. ..more than that. I have faith that anyone building a car for the challenge would know where the line is.
I say that if you're doing the tuning then it's tool rental but if they're helping in any way with the tuning it's at their rate in the budget.
codrus wrote: It seems a bit perverse to say that you could (in theory) spend $20K to buy a dyno and do as much dyno tuning as you wanted without it appearing in the budget, but if you rent someone else's then you have to account for it.
i spent 2 grand on tire machines, now i can budget $0 for mounting and balancing instead of paying a shop $80-100 out of my budget. i win. 20 challenges later i'll break even.
bring on the dyno, i could use one.
I more or less agree with the first post, it's a tool.
Also semi related but it would be cool to see a portable dyno at the challenge for fun
If I ever do the challenge again, I'm quite happy to have the dyno time free. DIY tuning isn't that big of a deal. 
(like the concourse- much of can be done with a reasonable time is very dependent on the available skill set.)
I thought this over a few different tmes and came up with a few different answers each time.
I am sincerely interested to see what the staff says. I heard a story recently that TunaDad brought 100 hp to the table by accompanying a friend to the dyno. Oddly enough, TunaDad won't attend his own dyno sessions.
It seems a bit perverse to say that you could (in theory) spend $20K to buy a dyno and do as much dyno tuning as you wanted without it appearing in the budget, but if you rent someone else's then you have to account for it.
I don't see it being new or different when some winning cars have $20k worth of skilled labor dumped into them that's just never billed for. A lot of questions are not asked, in the spirit of the event. There's plenty of annoying niggles, yes, but if you go down enough rabbit holes the whole idea will just fall apart, and nobody really wants that.
LuxInterior wrote: I'd say: track is a tool, cresent wrench is a tool, dyno is a tool. Whether I own, borrow, or rent the tool shouldn't matter. Another example: if I go to Taylor Rental and rent an engine hoist to work on the car, i wouldn't expect that expense to have to be accounted for as part of the build cost. If I work at a shop, and we have a dyno, and I use it, I wouldn't expect to add the hourly shop rate for the dyno time to the build. Carry on.
... As long as you're not doing it on company time.
Stampie wrote: I say that if you're doing the tuning then it's tool rental but if they're helping in any way with the tuning it's at their rate in the budget.
I agree with this.
I'm not involved in this, which makes me an unbiased expert... cough.
I say the dyno should be viewed the same as the $10-20K optical alignment rack your mechanic uses for wheel alignments. Regardless how much the tool itself costs, you just pay the standard shop rate.
You'll need to log in to post.
