In reply to frenchyd :
He thought is was really cool.........not that he's giving up his Lexus LS400 anytime soon.
In reply to frenchyd :
He thought is was really cool.........not that he's giving up his Lexus LS400 anytime soon.
In reply to Tom1200 :
Your son is showing a lot of good common sense. Newer is going to be better safer and massively more practical.
Weird old geezers like me are probably showing dementia when I take a decent restorable car and turn it into a race car. Even worse when it's an obscure car with 12 cylinders instead of 4-6-8 Plus one not known for reliability even when it was new. Then add elements like twin turbo's and alcohol fuel.
Hug you kid and pat him on his head. 'Cause he's likely to go a lot further than I did.
kb58 said:Yeah tuning a forced-induction engine is a lot like mapping out an ice-covered lake and finding the edge of where it's safe to venture. You don't just run right out there.
I'll leave you with a quote from a discussion about turbo cars - an exaggeration, perhaps, but not if you don't build and tune it correctly:
… a turbo engine is like having a cokehead pornstar girlfriend. There’s going to be unparalleled excitement and thrills, but a lot of unexplainable downtime and a likely violent ending that leaves you broke and insane…
I am going to take a chance though. Normal when building a turbo engine is to open the rings up for the added heat of turbocharging. Failure to do that will cause the rings to butt together and then pop the ring lands off the piston resulting in smoke and no compression. Oops!
However if you get a motor with say 100,000 miles or so and you use E85 ethanol. The cooler running motor and wear on the rings usually let you get by.
If however, it's Oops. ?!?!? Well, I can then order up a custom made set of pistons. Use the much better flowing earlier flatheads and the sleeves will go out as much as .200 and still be safe.
Suddenly I'm near 7 liters ( 427 cu in ) and probably gained another 50 hp.
frenchyd said:dean1484 said:In reply to frenchyd :
Strength of the block is not usually the problem. Burning holes in pistons or blowing apart ringlands or pounding the big end bearing in to oblivion with detonation are where things go wrong fast.
That's why I'm using the mega squirt EFI system. Rather than the stock Lucas Analog system that requires soldering in various triggers to add fuel as needed.
So I can monitor the combustion cycle In real time on the chassis Dyno and change things with a key stroke.
I missed this earlier. Megasquirt is a tool not a cure. With boost the higher you go the less room for error you have in your tune. Megasquirt will not prevent you from blowing up a motor. In fact it makes blowing things up easy as you have access to as many adjustable perimeters that you wire up to it. Megasquirt does have its auto tune system. I can not speak for it as I have never used it. I would set an initial target of 6lbs of boost. Get it running perfectly then slowly up the boost and make the adjustments needed to keep things happy (usually fuel and timing). Also heat will not be your friend and while your motor may be up to the task your cooling systems for oil as well as the coolant are often not as boost goes up and that leads to the destruction of an otherwise exceptional motor.
My point is you have so far been doing all the right things but from my experience don't just jump in and go to a boost level that if there is a failure it will be catastrophic. Start much lower and work your way up to your desired boost level. That way if you have a problem it will hopefully just be a reading on the computer that is out of spec that you can correct. That same out of spec reading at 2x the boost will most likely end with broken parts and a broken wallet.
GaryC83 said:Skip the asphalt circle track nascar tires. You'd have better luck with a used soft compound roundie round dirt tire. Even then, you'd be further ahead buying a dirt cheap pair of used up drag radials or slicks or street tires.
Nascar slicks just aren't going to work for what you are trying to do. At all. Super stiff sidewall, wrong tread compound and so forth. Everything and anything that could possibly be wrong with them for use as a drag tire, is.
I'm looking for a workable alternative to NASCAR Slicks that will work for drag racing, auto cross, and Vintage.
Now the drag racing part isn't a real big deal. I'll only do test and tune on that and the guys will probably only focus on the autocross at the challenge. Just a pass or two to set the dynamic score.
With the flairs I'll use 15x10 rims but don't need a 27 inch tall tire. 30-40-50 series will be just fine.
Im using pirelli ta2 takeoff for my nascar size tires on an old nascar.
I have used hoosier f40 circle track slicks. Lts of sidewall flop, never really got warm during autocross but never ran out of grip. Chassis took forever to catch up to the steering inputs though.
There's no tire that'll do all of those things well especially at the power levels you're aiming for.
I just skimmed this thread and want to reiterate what Dean and others have been saying. 12psi is a lot of boost, that will effectively be a 80% increase in power off the hit, should be closer to 100% increase with E85 and proper timing.
Start at the lowest possible boost setting and go from there, you will really need to dial in the fuel and spark maps for the EFI before you ever see positive manifold pressure. Emphasis on the spark map here, that is the number one thing that will put holes in your pistons and is not controlled by any of the "self tuning" standalone ECUs on the market.
I do have a couple questions because this thread is mostly a wall of text and a few pictures of the engine and body. I hate to see ambitious projects like this stall or get scrapped because of a lack of knowledge or an unwillingness to share information.
In reply to RacetruckRon :
Hey great. Good questions. Yes I've got a pair of EBay Turbo's based on recommendations and my past experience.
I kludged a prior V12 using the factory EFI set up. ( 3 VW Rabbit units). A pair of Junkyard T2 Saab turbo's and no intercooler. Starting out as rich as I could set but using Gold palladium plugs to keep from fouling them. At 3 pounds of boost I tripped the cold start injectors, and at 5 pounds the back up set of cold start injectors squirted 40% methanol/ water in. 6.5 psi is the most boost they were capable of.
I'd intended to race it in Chumpcar that didn't happen and I wound up selling it. I still see it running around every once in a while doing smoky show off burn outs.
Anyway. I tend to be a very careful builder. I do have to break some rules though. There won't be any intercoolers.
I'll keep careful track of inlet temps if they get too high, I'll back off the boost.
I could used the methanol/ water trigger maybe using more methanol but only on the dyno until I'm very confident the engine is happy.
I'm not afraid of melting pistons or even ruining an engine. Jaguar V12's are extremely cheap. The ones I've got probably were free. Nobody bothered to figure out how the factory EFI works ( you actually have to hard wire into the system to change things.). But since I'll be using the Mega Squirt this time my life will be much easier. Yeh the sensors are analog but they won't be hard to swap for didgetal ones.
No they don't have internal waste gates. I'd rather put a pair of external ones on so I can place them where I have easy access to them.
The V12 is not something you can order turbo manifolds for. But the stock cast Iron manifolds only weigh 4 pounds each. ( there's 4) and unlike most V8's or 4 cylinders. They work. A properly designed and carefully built set of headers on a V12 only add 4% more power. There is 2 big problems with them. It's takes 27 feet of tubing to build them. And you have to be an artist to get all that to fit in the engine compartment. ( it's narrow) If you do succeed the whole engine compartment is stuffed with pipe and no air can flow through. Add a pair of turbo's. In there and well, it just isn't going to work.
Bottom line? I won't push it, not because I'm afraid of blowing things up. But if it gets distressed on the Dyno. It won't last on the track.
There are computer programs that have given me the limits I have. But I understand that I could have made data entry errors. So better safe than sorry.
Oh, regarding fuel pump, the stock Lucas pump works at 30 psi and can only be increase by a few pounds so that won't work.
There is a common aftermarket pump Wahlpro? I intend to use. Plus I doubt the stock fuel lines are big enough. Since I'll need a fuel cell the whole system is going to be changed. Including the Injectors, probably the fuel rail. And likely the pressure regulators. There I think I've got an advantage. If I use the Flex fuel injectors for a Chevy V8 I believe just a slight pressure boost to about 58 pounds will provide me with the ability feed 1000 hp ( not that I'll go there) . The fuel rail for a Chevy trailblazer has the same cylinder spacing so a pair of them will take to that set up like a duck to water.
Dusterbd13-michael said:Im using pirelli ta2 takeoff for my nascar size tires on an old nascar.
I have used hoosier f40 circle track slicks. Lts of sidewall flop, never really got warm during autocross but never ran out of grip. Chassis took forever to catch up to the steering inputs though.
Thanks for that input. I'm worried about just that subject. Steering inputs. Both Group 44 and TRW appear to be using the stock power steering rack. Watching videos of each at several different race events no one appears to be flailing so either I'm wrong about concern for too slow a steering ratio. Or they had other than stock ratios.
Crawling all over all 3 Cars Group 44 raced it sure looks stock and they were wonderfully open about all the changes they made. Nobody ever said anything about the steering.
What do you pay for Pirelli take offs and where do you get them?
dean1484 said:frenchyd said:dean1484 said:In reply to frenchyd :
Strength of the block is not usually the problem. Burning holes in pistons or blowing apart ringlands or pounding the big end bearing in to oblivion with detonation are where things go wrong fast.
That's why I'm using the mega squirt EFI system. Rather than the stock Lucas Analog system that requires soldering in various triggers to add fuel as needed.
So I can monitor the combustion cycle In real time on the chassis Dyno and change things with a key stroke.I missed this earlier. Megasquirt is a tool not a cure. With boost the higher you go the less room for error you have in your tune. Megasquirt will not prevent you from blowing up a motor. In fact it makes blowing things up easy as you have access to as many adjustable perimeters that you wire up to it. Megasquirt does have its auto tune system. I can not speak for it as I have never used it. I would set an initial target of 6lbs of boost. Get it running perfectly then slowly up the boost and make the adjustments needed to keep things happy (usually fuel and timing). Also heat will not be your friend and while your motor may be up to the task your cooling systems for oil as well as the coolant are often not as boost goes up and that leads to the destruction of an otherwise exceptional motor.
My point is you have so far been doing all the right things but from my experience don't just jump in and go to a boost level that if there is a failure it will be catastrophic. Start much lower and work your way up to your desired boost level. That way if you have a problem it will hopefully just be a reading on the computer that is out of spec that you can correct. That same out of spec reading at 2x the boost will most likely end with broken parts and a broken wallet.
We completely agree! In fact I'll start off with zero boost. Leave the turbo's off until I'm happy with the way it's running. Just use the stock pipes off the exhaust manifolds.
Once I'm comfortable then I'll plumb in the Turbo's and see what they are willing to take. Checking inlet temps and mixtures. Leaving the timing stock initially.
Tuning won't happen until on the dyno where I can quickly shut off and adjust or change whatever needs it.
I do have one question though.
This is a race car. I always rigidly mount the engines in race cars use them to stiffen the chassis. Since the V12 is so smooth. ( easy to balance a coin on it while idling) can I also rigidly mount the turbo? I mean I'll use a flex coupler on the pipe between the Exhaust and the turbo. But if the turbo is rigidly mounted it's less likely to break the tail pipe and fall off, isn't it?
frenchyd said:Dusterbd13-michael said:Im using pirelli ta2 takeoff for my nascar size tires on an old nascar.
I have used hoosier f40 circle track slicks. Lts of sidewall flop, never really got warm during autocross but never ran out of grip. Chassis took forever to catch up to the steering inputs though.
Thanks for that input. I'm worried about just that subject. Steering inputs. Both Group 44 and TRW appear to be using the stock power steering rack. Watching videos of each at several different race events no one appears to be flailing so either I'm wrong about concern for too slow a steering ratio. Or they had other than stock ratios.
Crawling all over all 3 Cars Group 44 raced it sure looks stock and they were wonderfully open about all the changes they made. Nobody ever said anything about the steering.
What do you pay for Pirelli take offs and where do you get them?
It wasn't the steering rate that got us. It was the amount of tire flex. You kind of had to wait for it to take a set, then do the next correction.
Im getting them from a dude off Facebook marketplace ip the road, paying $100 a set. He only gets four or five sets at a time
Im sure one of the used race rubber guys gets them too.
In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :
Thanks for that. So you're happy with the Pirelli's?
I've used Hoosier Dirt Stockers back before Vintage race tires became a thing. They were pretty decent. I'd go out and get them up to temp once, bring them in to cool off and for the next year or so they were fine.
frenchyd said:In reply to RacetruckRon :
Hey great. Good questions. Yes I've got a pair of EBay Turbo's based on recommendations and my past experience.
I kludged a prior V12 using the factory EFI set up. ( 3 VW Rabbit units). A pair of Junkyard T2 Saab turbo's and no intercooler. Starting out as rich as I could set but using Gold palladium plugs to keep from fouling them. At 3 pounds of boost I tripped the cold start injectors, and at 5 pounds the back up set of cold start injectors squirted 40% methanol/ water in. 6.5 psi is the most boost they were capable of.
I'd intended to race it in Chumpcar that didn't happen and I wound up selling it. I still see it running around every once in a while doing smoky show off burn outs.
Anyway. I tend to be a very careful builder. I do have to break some rules though. There won't be any intercoolers.
I'll keep careful track of inlet temps if they get too high, I'll back off the boost.
I could used the methanol/ water trigger maybe using more methanol but only on the dyno until I'm very confident the engine is happy.
I'm not afraid of melting pistons or even ruining an engine. Jaguar V12's are extremely cheap. The ones I've got probably were free. Nobody bothered to figure out how the factory EFI works ( you actually have to hard wire into the system to change things.). But since I'll be using the Mega Squirt this time my life will be much easier. Yeh the sensors are analog but they won't be hard to swap for didgetal ones.
No they don't have internal waste gates. I'd rather put a pair of external ones on so I can place them where I have easy access to them.
The V12 is not something you can order turbo manifolds for. But the stock cast Iron manifolds only weigh 4 pounds each. ( there's 4) and unlike most V8's or 4 cylinders. They work. A properly designed and carefully built set of headers on a V12 only add 4% more power. There is 2 big problems with them. It's takes 27 feet of tubing to build them. And you have to be an artist to get all that to fit in the engine compartment. ( it's narrow) If you do succeed the whole engine compartment is stuffed with pipe and no air can flow through. Add a pair of turbo's. In there and well, it just isn't going to work.
Bottom line? I won't push it, not because I'm afraid of blowing things up. But if it gets distressed on the Dyno. It won't last on the track.
There are computer programs that have given me the limits I have. But I understand that I could have made data entry errors. So better safe than sorry.
Oh, regarding fuel pump, the stock Lucas pump works at 30 psi and can only be increase by a few pounds so that won't work.
There is a common aftermarket pump Wahlpro? I intend to use. Plus I doubt the stock fuel lines are big enough. Since I'll need a fuel cell the whole system is going to be changed. Including the Injectors, probably the fuel rail. And likely the pressure regulators. There I think I've got an advantage. If I use the Flex fuel injectors for a Chevy V8 I believe just a slight pressure boost to about 58 pounds will provide me with the ability feed 1000 hp ( not that I'll go there) . The fuel rail for a Chevy trailblazer has the same cylinder spacing so a pair of them will take to that set up like a duck to water.
You don't have to tell a story to answer a question. I'm just trying to help by asking some questions to stir up some critical thinking here.
In reply to RacetruckRon :
I'm sorry. It's hard to answer your questions without the whole story. Too brief I'll sound curt and it won't give you the information you're seeking. It sounds like you'd prefer pictures but there are pictures answering your questions.
I owe you an apology. I said I had pictures of the turbos but apparently not because I looked and can't find them.
I'll take some in the morning for you.
In reply to RacetruckRon :
I've heard people say "if ya can't baffle 'em with your brilliance, befuddle 'em with your bull!"
He does have a ton of knowledge, but tends to throw out so much BS along with it, it can really get lost.
Update to report no recent progress. Well I have been slowly removing undercoating. But pictures of that are like watching paint dry .
It's easy enough on a rotisserie or would be if allowed to. However SWMBO has kept me busy with the honey do list and getting rid of things from her mothers stored in my shop.
In reply to frenchyd :
Finished cleaning up the trunk opening and wheel flair openings. Set up the bead roller to press beads into the trunk floor.
Took a chunk of skin off with the grinder so it has the required blood donation. Offended my wife by getting her sink full of blood trying to get a bandage to stick on fresh blood.
Jeff finished everything while I kept sticking bandages on.
Ate pizza and planned for tomorrow. Bandage sorta staying on
Good to see you making some progress again. I hope your lungs are feeling better.
In reply to frenchyd :
Superglue.
In reply to Stampie :
Are you saying that superglue will work if blood is flooding from the cut?
Thank you, probably a lot easier than going in for stitches. I kept apply pressure and trying to get a bandage to stay on. Eventually successful but the super glue was handy.
TVR Scott said:Good to see you making some progress again. I hope your lungs are feeling better.
Yes they are. It's taken me nearly all summer to get back to work.
It's especially great working with Jeff. I love his focus on doing his best work. It's nice to run ideas by him and listen to his suggestions on how to improve it or do it easier. So far we've been in total agreement because we both want it to be something to be proud of and have fun with.
In reply to frenchyd :
more progress working mainly on the trunk floor. Cleaning up and straightening it. Then replace with new floor after I put beads in it and flanges 
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