A buddy of mine is looking to pick up this 944 ls swap project
https://lubbock.craigslist.org/cto/6068120165.html
what is the GRM brain trusts thoughts on this particular swap and this car? any major parts missing?
I know there has been talk about these before and I'm digging for those discussions. Isn't there something about the brake system that needs attention?
overall how is this chassis? anything else I need to know?
I would offer him $200 for the parts and find a better car to start with.
Offer him money for the parts and find a clean car. You can get a decent runner here for 3k.
Booster won't fit with most V8 swaps. So either a manual brake conversion or a hydro-boost swap.
Chassis is a bit aged anymore. Struts up front (reversed Mk1 Rabbit from the 70's with fancy cast aluminum arms) with trailing arms in the rear (essentially the same as a Super Beetle, so bigger torsion bars can be found in the off-road section of many VW suppliers), so expect bumpsteer, especially if lowered a lot and lots of rear end squat under acceleration.
Really the Japanese copy aka the 2nd gen RX-7 is a better chassis with better suspension geometry and cheaper parts costs. For similar money as a properly sorted and driving LSx 944, you could get probably a base model C5 that's been run hard and still spend less on consumables and maintenance and get a better handling car (plus with the rear mounted transaxle it drives like a slightly bigger 944).
Anyway, the Audi 016 5-speed transaxle won't stand up to drag launches for very long and swapping 5th gear for a different ratio helps in the highway. Turbo transaxles are a common swap as they are stronger and more likely to have a LSD, especially for really high power engines and adding a stiffer bearing retainer plate along with the 5th gear makes for a pretty sturdy, if not ultimately expensive solution ($1800 in parts along to freshen one of the turbo transaxles I had and they all need to be freshened up anymore).
Wheel costs for the Porsche bolt pattern is stupidly expensive, so watch for deals on take offs on later model cars or order a set from Diamond, etc. for the track.
For parts and solutions hit up Texas Performance Concepts and their forum there, lots of DIY friendly solutions as opposed to Renegade who tried to steal the DIY solutions as their own and then shutdown the DIY forums. Generally not well liked in the community.
Good luck!
I dig the 944. I dig LS engines. Something about putting them together feels wholly sacreligious though I'm not a purist in any form. That said, in my casual reading, the 951 really works much better with the swap compared to the base model. My personal opinion is to keep the 2.5l, rebuild/refresh as needed, give the suspension a good work-over and enjoy the car for what it is. I kinda hate the thought of tearing one apart. Keep in mind, this is only my opinion and there are many who disagree with me.
951 doesn't really offer much over a 944 NA, expensive brakes and a transaxle plus styling if it matters to you.
The rest are all parts you'd likely replace anyway with modern solutions or replacements for worn bits.
In reply to Stefan:
Really? What about the supposedly "stiffer chassis" and the strong transaxle with more suitable gear ratios and LSD?
Stefan wrote: 951 doesn't really offer much over a 944 NA, expensive brakes and a transaxle plus styling if it matters to you.
I think I'd want those more expensive brakes if I was putting a V8 into a 944. I just took mine off, and I wouldn't want to push it too hard with the stock NA brakes.
I haven't ruled out doing this to my car someday. I've also been hearing about people swapping in the VW/Audi 1.8T engine. Lots of power potential, easier to fit, and it's still in the "family".
Spec944 racers use the stock brakes with stickier tires than we run on the street and with proper pads they work well. They run the same diameter rotors and slightly stiffer calipers which helps when you're on the limits and need to subtlety change the amount of pedal pressure.
The "stiffer" chassis is only on the 88 951S and the 89 951 (same parts as the 951S) are a couple of braces that run forward from the strut tower to the frame rail. Two pieces of flat triangular steel sheet. Wow. Not sure anyone here could replicate that.
The turbo gearbox actually is worse for gearing until you get the 5th gear swapped. If you can find a diesel final drive drive a euro 016 then you could get it nearly perfect. The turbo and 944S2 boxes are slightly stronger, but still suffers from the same issues with the differential eventually eating itself and will need to be refreshed before you abuse it (or use cheap 944NA boxes until they blow up and swap them).
I've driven an LS swapped 944 on the road. It was pretty nicely done, the engine works well in the car. It was fitted with a hydroboost brake booster and a Turbo trans. We also weighed it so we have solid before/after numbers. I can find them if anyone's interested.
Keith Tanner wrote: I've driven an LS swapped 944 on the road. It was pretty nicely done, the engine works well in the car. It was fitted with a hydroboost brake booster and a Turbo trans. We also weighed it so we have solid before/after numbers. I can find them if anyone's interested.
I'd like to know.
Spec 944's weigh 2600lbs with driver and make ~140rwhp.
An LS conversion will easily make more than double that to more than triple that.
Mine made anywhere from 375-425rwhp depending on where I was in the build.
I'd want Turbo brakes for that amount of power. The turbo transmission is also a whole lot stronger.
Gearing sucks with any of the 944/951 transmissions, so just get the strongest one.
This isn't a cheap swap and hacing swapped a 951 and lived with it for 6 years I feel there are much better platforms to swap. Either the rx7 or e36 M3 for instance....
I would do an FC RX7 before I did a 944. I have spent extended periods of time with both cars in my fleet and hands down I would pick the rx over the 944 for a swap. This is not to say a 944 is a bad car. In fact a well sorted s2 is on my list of will have cars.
This is a 1986 944, weighed under identical conditions before and after an LS3 swap. The brake upgrades and Turbo trans were done before the first weighing. This is a full wet weight including a big ol' subwoofer.
Before: 2915 lbs, 52% rear
After: 3045 lbs, 49.9% rear
Thanks, Keith. Not that bad, considering the performance increase.
Anybody have thoughts on the 1.8T swap? Seems like an easier fit to me, you could retain the brake booster, and the engine is probably lighter than the original one.
Was just looking at a n immaculate 944 that was for sale. Found in an underground lot after owner died. I can not picture a V8 in there.
For sale if anyone interested. NMNA
The 1.8T swap isn't as easy since it doesn't really bolt together. I'd go VR6, personally as that motor is used in the Cayenne and is PCA legal for engine swaps. The effort and bellhousing patterns are the same between the two.
Basically you get to cut the bellhousing portion off a donor VW transaxle and build an adapter to the torque tube and then weld them together.
The oil pan needs to be sectioned to fit around the cross member. Be careful to leave enough space for the oil pump, etc.
The Audi 5-cylinder and V8 are actually slightly easier swaps as they use the 924 bell housing pattern, so it will bolt to the torque tube with the right combo of factory parts.
The VR6 sounds lovely but doesn't really make a lot of power unless you add forced induction to it.
The Audi 5 cylinder AAN is a bomb proof motor that can make gobs of power but it has old school turbo lag.
There is a company making 1.8T swap stuff for the 944, the cars they've converted look very clean but I have no idea how expensive or time consuming that swap is.
Why would you use a turbo designed in the 70's? Grab a newer turbo off something modern and get going. It's like building a 951 and complaining about turbo lag when there are modern alternatives that reduce that issue. I mean if we're talking a check-book build then why not write the check a little larger for a proper sized turbo?
Also, like I said, the VR6 is PCA legal. It can make also upwards of 300hp if you grab the right version. It's an option for those that are interested.
The 1.8T swap company is using a 034 Motorsports bellhousing adapter, which is not cheap. Not sure about the rest of the parts, but that is where the knowledge lies as people like Keith and others can attest to when it comes to engine swaps.
In reply to Stefan:
034 Motorsports!
And I dreamed about doing a VR6 in my b5 a4 after seeing theirs... But thats totally OT. I do like the boosted vr6 though.
Right, sorry about that. Brain fart after dealing with a screaming 9 month old.
Parts for an LS swap into a 944 run about $8,000 all in - that's the bottom end.
Plus you have about 80-120 hours of labor.
This is all according to Renegade Hybrids.
Ignore anything Renegade Hybrids says. They are crooks and make sub-par products. Texas Performance is where it's at.
Eh, I disagree with that. Some of the Renegade parts are good. Some of the Texas Performance parts are good.
This isn't a cheap swap, although price does depend on several choices, like what you're going to run for headers, brakes, etc...
Nowhere should the words "cheap" be near "30 year old front-engined/water cooled Porsche"
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