Learn me Audi S4 - B5

As a possible family/play/track car.

Kinda jack of all trades (master of none).

Do tell.

I lusted for one for many years while driving a pedestrian B5 A4. That being said, there are many better options. There is a long list of reasons they never became common at track days or races outside of the World Challenge.

Some of the top reasons, 2-expensive turbos, need to lift motor to change O2 sensors, very front heavy causing lots of push in corners, expensive parts that are difficult to access. They sure do look great and paper out well though.

Do you like removing the complete drivetrain to replace motor mounts, O2 sensors, turbos, and gaskets? If so, they are awesome cars.

They are not DIY friendly and valve cover/cam chain tensioner seals need to be replaced every 30K.

Nose heavy pig is an understatement.

The V8 version is a superior car IMO. Easier to work on, less failures, and lots of torque.

Well then, two glowing reviews so far.

I was afraid of this.

The front suspension is best replaced in its entirety. And there are way more links and non replaceable bushings than one would expect.

You do not have to take the motor out to replace the motor mounts. It is a bunch of work that involves supporting the motor with an engine hoist and dropping the subframe a bit, but you don't need to actually take the motor out. Yes, as with most Audis of the late 90s/early 2000s, the front suspension has bushings that wear out quickly. They're easy to DIY and there are reasonably-priced aftermarket parts now, so I don't see this as a big deal for your typical GRM board member.

I owned a B5 S4 for 70K miles (from new). I liked it a lot, but with some caveats. It's a great street car, fast and comfy, lots of room, lots of potential for power. It's not good as either an autox car or a track car in stock condition -- too heavy, lots of power, understeers at autox, melts brake and tires at the track. You can address those, but aftermarket upgrades for this car are expensive relative to what you'd pay for the same thing on a Honda or a Miata.

As with most expensive German cars that are 15 years old, it's got high repair costs and low resale value, so most of the cars out there are on their 3rd or 4th owner and are suffering from a lot of deferred maintenance. It's also a motor with a reputation for being easy to make a ton of power, so many of them are also full of questionable mods. A cheap car will be a money pit, but if you can find one with low miles and a single owner who's kept up on maintenance, and are willing to either pay to maintain it or DIY it properly, then it has the potential to be a good buy.

This was mine:

But... what about the infamous timing chain? I'm sure someone will chime in with THAT picture.....

NEALSMO wrote: Do you like removing the complete drivetrain to replace motor mounts, O2 sensors, turbos, and gaskets? If so, they are awesome cars. They are not DIY friendly and valve cover/cam chain tensioner seals need to be replaced every 30K. Nose heavy pig is an understatement. The V8 version is a superior car IMO. Easier to work on, less failures, and lots of torque.

I've always like them, too. But the internet has successfully scared me away from ever owning one.

It will be a fantastic Jack-of-all-trades car.

You will be jacking it up constantly and you will learn a trade.

Signed former B5 Owner.

It was a fantastic driving car, but in the period I owned it (about 100k kms - from 96k to 198k), I did a full replacement of the front suspension arms twice. The kit was $600 USD from FCP Groton. From the dealer $2500 CAD!!! The pcv system on them is very complex and full of hoses that like to leak due to heat from the turbo(s).

The red Outback in the pic was more reliable, I beat on it (rally-X, etc.), it had 412k kms on it, it had the supposedly notoriously suspect EJ25D (DOHC - HG engine) and I bought it for $500 and sold it for $1000.

Just NO!

RossD wrote: The front suspension is best replaced in its entirety. And there are way more links and non replaceable bushings than one would expect.

. . . . . . . and when you do, make sure you only tighten the bolts with the car on the ground, or you will be doing it again real soon. The rubber bushings will fail shortly if you don't ensure that you do this.

Get the idea, I don't like these cars!!!! BTW, I don't hate VW's - on my 7th right now.

NGTD wrote: From the dealer $2500 CAD!!!

You can get a full set of front arms (aftermarket) for $250 these days, or if you're really cheap and don't value your time, just the bushings for about $100.

Shaun wrote: But... what about the infamous timing chain? I'm sure someone will chime in with THAT picture.....

NEALSMO wrote: Do you like removing the complete drivetrain to replace motor mounts, O2 sensors, turbos, and gaskets? If so, they are awesome cars. They are not DIY friendly and valve cover/cam chain tensioner seals need to be replaced every 30K. Nose heavy pig is an understatement. The V8 version is a superior car IMO. Easier to work on, less failures, and lots of torque.

That is the B6 S4 with the 4.2. The B5 S4 has the 2.7TT, which ain't exactly a walk in the park itself but is perhaps a bit less intimidating to service.

I wanted one so bad i got a non s instead. 1.8t a4 avant sport package. Anyways i hear the hot ticket is get a b5 v6 then swap in a a8 4.2 then you have the b5 they should have made with the v8 instead of the sketchy 2.7tt and it all bolts in with mostly stock parts!

Yes.. Keep demand down until AFTER I find an Avant. They made those in B5 form, right, not just B6?

Quick, someone make a joke about check engine light sunburn! I want them to hit the value nadir somewhere around spring when AWD cars have their lowest value

Knurled wrote: Yes.. Keep demand down until AFTER I find an Avant. They made those in B5 form, right, not just B6?

They did. It was announced the week after I bought my sedan, grrr.

They are rare, especially in manual transmission form, though.

In reply to codrus:

You sorry saps. I got so lucky with my latest purchase. Learned it was pretty much unicorn after I bought it. 2000 audi a4 (b5) quattro manual 1.8t...avant.

Shaun wrote: But... what about the infamous timing chain? I'm sure someone will chime in with THAT picture.....

OK...

A couple of S4 2.7TT Avants have sold on BaT recently. Definitely for far more than online pricing guide numbers.

The 2.7TT uses a timing belt, not a chain. Factory service interval was supposed to be 110,000 miles but due to failures at around 80K they changed the recommendation to 70K. It is an interference engine so neglect at your peril. I bought my Allroad (same engine) with 80K on it and had the service performed for me at an Indy shop along with a bunch of other stuff (air suspension, tuning, control arms, etc) for something like $3,000.

Apparently the turbos can fail at around 150,000 miles or last forever. A lot of what people hear about are the horror stories, not the "my car was fine for 300,000 miles" tales.

I think part of the problem with a lot of VAG turbo cars from this era was many were not maintained with correct VAG-rated oil, which was harder to find back then (much easier now). When I first bought my TDI in 2003, the only place I could find the correct oil for about 4 or 5 years was at a local dealer. None of the FLAPS had it. Now I can get the correct oil at Walmart (Mobil 1 Euro 0-40).

In reply to KyAllroad:

Yes - I know. The photo was in reference to a comment about wanting the 4.2 over the 2.7T.

I've owned two of these. If they've been maintained properly they're pretty solid cars. You do NOT need to remove the engine to replace the O2 sensor. These are DIY friendly, you just have to embrace the Audi way, which is they want you to remove a bunch of stuff to get at what you want.

Audi stuffed a lot of stuff into a small engine bay, the result of which bakes every single piece of plastic in there.

Any used S4 you pick up now you have to assume was neglected. Budget a bunch of time and money to bring it up to snuff. Once that's done, it'll be a fun DD.

They're not good track/auto-x cars. Just too heavy. Even with Stoptech BBK's I'd turn my brake fluid Coca Cola colored after 1 track day...

Ian F wrote: Yes - I know. The photo was in reference to a comment about wanting the 4.2 over the 2.7T.

I owned both a B5 and B6 S4. The 2.7T has more torque sooner and is very mod-friendly, but the 4.2 wants to rev and it sounds glorious. Stock vs stock I much preferred the 4.2.

A lot of the people who blew up turbos early had chipped them. Chipping it turns the boost up, and those K03s are tiny tiny turbos in order to get the low end response. I always felt there was a direct correlation between the amount of boost people ran on them and turbo life.

The incidence of the timing chain failure on the 4.2 is vastly overstated as well.

I had a b5 A4 for 11 years. Ended up trading it in at 196k miles. I did nothing more than basic maintenance, brakes, oil misc parts. Did have the TB done by a shop, as well as all the front control arms at one point. But beyond that I was actually sad to see it go. Great classic body lines. If I didnt have so many projects already it was begging for a VR6 swap.

Last pic I took when trading it in

In reply to Ian F:

Yes, so true. My A6 2.7T was purchased used (traded in at 85K) and I sold it at 190K with the stock turbos still pulling strong! Regular synthetic oil changes probably help in that regard. Maintenance intervals must be followed, do so and these engines are reliable and powerful, but not a good track choice in my opinion....

I know several people who have had B5 S4s and it never ended well for any of them.