I have never owned or worked on any BMW. I am seriously thinking about buying an older 3 series for daily driver/Autocross/track days. I read that they are easy to work on and parts seem to be available. I want to be able to do all the work that the car needs. My big question is this, how difficult is it to completely rebuild an engine? Excluding nikisil engines, can they be bored out if the need arises? I am looking to spend under 5,000 for the car. Next question, which one is the best choice?
Define older. E21 (77-83), E30 (84-91), E36 (92-98?). Newer gets bigger, heavier, more powerful, and more complex. Early ones can be worked on with a hammer, a surly disposition, and little else. Later ones require code readers, fondness for miles of wiring, and a love of black plastic engine components. None are hard to work on by contemporary standards, and virtually all the parts are available. Iron blocks can be bored if necessary, but once you get up the M50 series engines in the E36, you're better off just finding a good used one.
^^ what he said.
Brake My Wallet
Bring Money and Wait
In reply to 02Pilot:
After having an E36 and an E46, I think I'd get a 2002 (model, not year). I've grown to hate German electronics.
bring more wallett
But seriously I have had the same thoughts, how are the older ones to live with?
I have owned an E28 (528i), E34 (525it) and E36 (325is) and worked on E30s, and to an extent E21s and E39s.
I can tell you that the interior trim gets crappier and crappier with every successive generation; otherwise 02pilot is spot on the mark. I would add that the older engines (M10/M20/M30) have an aftermarket that is basically limited to cams, headers, triple carbs, and forced induction; you could bore one out, but it's a waste of time vs finding a newer M40/M50 engine (which have twin cams, VVT, timing chain, and a HUGE aftermarket). That is not to say that modding the older engines is a waste, but you can only go so far until you're spending huge money for small gains.
For $5000, I would recommend an E34 or E36 with the M50 engine and a 5-speed. If you want something more light and tossable find an E30. If you want practicality with a dose of awesome, do what I did and find a 5-speed E34 M50 wagon.
I have never had reliability problems with any BMW - they seem to be built extremely well. My E36 had a dashboard fire but that was traced to E36 M3ty PO wiring, no fault of the car itself.
02Pilot wrote: Define older. E21 (77-83), E30 (84-91), E36 (92-98?). Newer gets bigger, heavier, more powerful, and more complex. Early ones can be worked on with a hammer, a surly disposition, and little else. Later ones require code readers, fondness for miles of wiring, and a love of black plastic engine components. None are hard to work on by contemporary standards, and virtually all the parts are available. Iron blocks can be bored if necessary, but once you get up the M50 series engines in the E36, you're better off just finding a good used one.
You can bore an M50 out a full 2mm to fit stock S50 pistons.
Otto Maddox wrote: After having an E36 and an E46, I think I'd get a 2002 (model, not year). I've grown to hate German electronics.
Well, I've got both ends of the spectrum: a 1974 2002 and a 2001 525i. I love the simplicity of the 02, even with dual Webers, but I have to say that the unmolested stock 525i is a lot less troublesome than some other modern cars I've been exposed to, even with 130k miles and counting. At least the mechanical components are well thought-out and easy to deal with.
You could buy a REALLY fun E30 with $5k to spend.
So the 2002 is simple to work on, the e30 is tossable and the e36 is bigger, more complex, has more support and is the best looking.
How much of an issue is rust with all of these ?
The 2002 will lose a drag race to a 1.6 Miata.
SlickDizzy wrote: I would add that the older engines (M10/M20/M30) have an aftermarket that is basically limited to cams, headers, triple carbs, and forced induction; you could bore one out, but it's a waste of time vs finding a newer M40/M50 engine (which have twin cams, VVT, timing chain, and a HUGE aftermarket). That is not to say that modding the older engines is a waste, but you can only go so far until you're spending huge money for small gains.
The trouble with BMW aftermarket parts is that they are STUPIDLY expensive in a lot of cases. I'd suggest keeping the older mill and adding boost: the stock bottom ends are incredibly robust, and Megasquirt is well supported. 300whp isn't hard to achieve on the M10 (4 banger), easy on the M20 (2.5/2.7 I6), and stupid easy on the M30 (3.5 I6). As time goes on, I realize more and more that I've become a BMW fanboi. Not because I want to, but because they really DO make enjoyable, fun, comfortable DD that are affordable to buy and own.
Keith wrote: The 2002 will lose a drag race to a 1.6 Miata.
My '76 2002 won't ... but that's because it's got an m20 under the hood.
Beancounter wrote: So the 2002 is simple to work on, the e30 is tossable and the e36 is bigger, more complex, has more support and is the best looking. How much of an issue is rust with all of these ?
"E36 is...best looking"? Not sure you're going to get universal agreement on that one. Certainly not from me.
Rust is a major issue on the 2002 and E21, less so on the E30 (but still a very real possibility), and considerably less of an issue on the E36.
Even the E36 is a simple car.
As for the "break my wallet" I found that if you do the work yourself.. they are not more (and actually less in some cases) than the last Hyundai I owned.
Now go to the dealer for repairs... that will make your wallet cry
mad_machine wrote: As for the "break my wallet" I found that if you do the work yourself.. they are not more (and actually less in some cases) than the last Hyundai I owned.
+1. Parts may seem more expensive, but when I saw how thick the brake pads to my E34 were I understood why...a $70 set of brake pads is expensive, but god damn, they're almost an inch thick!
Keith wrote: The 2002 will lose a drag race to a 1.6 Miata.
Do you drag race these cars? On track I have passed many a miata in my 02 but that does not mean anything it's all about the driver...
We all know BMWs are bigger, heavier, less fun versions of a Miata, duh
I'm just saying. Given the number of complaints people have about the straight line speed of a stock 1990 Miata, it's worth pointing out that a stock-engined 2002 is no ball of fire either. The owner of FM has one, and he won't stop making comments about it even with the dual Webers, the header and other updates. Once he's got the car running well, maybe we'll even see it on the road more than once every six months...
Definitely not a direct comparison to an E36. Very, very different kind of ownership experience. Unless you buy a ratball E36, maybe.
In reply to Keith:
Yeah. I suspect a stock 4-cyl E36 would be a good bit quicker than a 2002. A 6-cyl would massacre it. But 2002s are just cool.
mad_machine wrote: Even the E36 is a simple car. As for the "break my wallet" I found that if you do the work yourself.. they are not more (and actually less in some cases) than the last Hyundai I owned. Now go to the dealer for repairs... that will make your wallet cry
+1 on this. Mechanical parts are relatively cheap, interior exterior parts are incredibly overpriced. Try $300 for a door seal (yes, it's a simple rubber gasket) or $600 for a driver's side power seat rail. However, I picked up the door seal for $100 used, and can source a seat rail pretty easily on the used market, or just buy an aftermarket seat.
Bimmerforums has an excellent group buy section where vendors fall all over trying to give you parts for the lowest prices, that's where I go when I have a decent-sized order.
Keith wrote: I'm just saying. Given the number of complaints people have about the straight line speed of a stock 1990 Miata, it's worth pointing out that a stock-engined 2002 is no ball of fire either. The owner of FM has one, and he won't stop making comments about it even with the dual Webers, the header and other updates. Once he's got the car running well, maybe we'll even see it on the road more than once every six months...
A well sorted 02 (m10 sounds like the FM owner has other issues) vs a 1.6 the 02 will run quicker lap times all day. But a 99/00 motor in a 1990 miata that is a different story. I think this would be very close in lap time, sort of depends on how many mods on the miata...
When I had my e36, too many procedures required a "$pecial tool". It always caught me off guard when I was replacing an 02 sensor for example. Bushings went all too frequently on the E36 also. Same with ignition coils and the odd solenoids or other electrical sensors.
Fun car for DD duties but required more attention than I would have liked for a new car.
Other than the cam tool to hold the cams stationary, I didn't find the need to buy those $pecial tools for E36s.
Nothing a little ingenuity can't fix . . . everything else was a basic socket set, beer, and time.
Now that Cam holding tool . . . I had to buy one of those . . . .
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