Learn me Chinese EV tech.

trigun7469 said:

 I have a plugin hybrid and if I use the 20-30 miles which isn't consistent (I live in Ohio with constant changes in weather) on its best day it is $.19 per mile (normal plug at home takes 15 hours to charge) versus $.12 per mile for gas (pretty consistently).

I think you might need to check your math. Unless you're paying some obscene rate for electricity or leave the car sitting running the heat 24/7 I can't imagine you're paying 19 cents per mile for EV miles on your car. In Ohio, we pay about $.14/kwh for electricity, and even an inefficient EV like the Rivian R1 gets 2.2 miles per KWh so that would be .06/mile for electric. My Volt is also inefficient and gets about 2 miles per KWh which is .07/mile for electric. A more efficient EV can get double those numbers, which of course halves the cost.

In reply to dculberson :

I figure roughly 3.3 cents/mile for our BEV when charged at home. 

The EIA says that Ohio residential power averages $0.1564 per KWh. The Wrangler 4xe has a 15 KWh (useable) battery and is rated at 21 miles of electric range, so it would cost just under 12 cents/mile in Ohio.  What's the least efficient PHEV on the market?

15 hours to charge at 120V/15A - that implies a 27 KWh battery. That's a big battery for 20 miles of range. What is this beast?

In reply to dculberson :

It uses 1.2KWh per miles according to my car ( think it uses more energy), AI came up with the math.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Cx-90, however I question the accuracy because my daughters school is 10 miles round trip and we do it twice a day, barely makes it without using gas and is all street so it takes advantage of regenerative braking. Honestly the gas cx-90 version is so much better, I had the gas version for a week and it virtually had the same MPG with the start stop. Should have kept my cx9.

In reply to trigun7469 :

Pretty simple math, at a 17.8kwh battery and 26 mile EV range you're using .68kwh/mile, or at the .14/kwh for electricity I swagged up top, that's $0.095/mile for electricity. Not free but just about half the number AI gave you. Questions would be your actual range and your actual electricity costs.

In reply to trigun7469 :

AI can get wonky when you ask it to use math. I forget the exact name of the type of prompt, but essentially you give it a formula, the work, and the correct answer. THEN you give it the mathematical problem you want it to solve so it understands the context. 

trigun7469 said:

In reply to dculberson :

It uses 1.2KWh per miles according to my car ( think it uses more energy), AI came up with the math.

 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Cx-90, however I question the accuracy because my daughters school is 10 miles round trip and we do it twice a day, barely makes it without using gas and is all street so it takes advantage of regenerative braking. Honestly the gas cx-90 version is so much better, I had the gas version for a week and it virtually had the same MPG with the start stop. Should have kept my cx9.

1.2mi/kwh is truly terrible efficiency. That's about half of what a Ford Lightning usually sees, and I've heard Hummer EV owners talking about getting above that on the highway. That's a bad enough number that I'm not sure I'd trust it honestly. I guess I can see it if you're parking outdoors and blasting HVAC for the whole trip.

PHEV efficiency does drop in colder months. Not sure how long you've had the CX-90, but it's very likely to see increased range and improved efficiency in warmer months when you can pack more energy into the battery, and use less range depleting HVAC.

Your charge time still seems really long though. Most owners are saying 11-12 hrs from 0-100% on a 120V outlet. Maybe your amperage is low on that circuit?

Random trivia: recently on another forum someone asked about the energy consumption of a 1st Gen Leaf while "racing".

1 mile/kWh looked like a reasonable estimate (actual reports on Leaf forums ranged from 0.8-1.2 mi/kWh for autox and track day).

Even a SWAG for Ultra4 (King of the Hammers) came out to around 1 mi/kWh with a whole lot of uncertainty.

Someone here on GRM with an e-Golf said 1.5 mi/kWh for autocross

Team Arcblast in 24 Hrs of Lemons might be getting 2-3 mi/kWh

I didn't try to find anything about Teslas on track or autox, or EVSR, or PPIHC, or e-FSAE, etc.

So, as I like to self-moderate my threads, here is what I am getting out of the responses.

First and foremost, China makes a LOT of EVS, so they are on an exponential learning and innovation curve.

China has a well developed charging infrastructure to support the EVs on the road and enough EVs on the road to support the infrastructure.

No real technological difference in the propulsion system other than a recently announced leap in charging technology that allows for much faster charging. That could be a huge thing.

At home, the chinese drivers have a much more developed charging infrastructure than the rest of the world; so they have a home advantage in selling themselves the EVs they build. The Chinese Gov seems "All in" on EV technology almost to the same point as they were in building apartment buildings.

Quality and safety are as we perceive all products from China; Variable and dependent on vendor and/or price point. So Chinese buyers can buy dirt cheap EVs that serve as base get-to-work transportation or they can go upmarket for prestige, quality and safety.

Innovation seems to happen much faster in China. That is a double edged sword in that your new car is going to be obsolete sooner rather than later.

Oapfu said:

Random trivia: recently on another forum someone asked about the energy consumption of a 1st Gen Leaf while "racing".

1 mile/kWh looked like a reasonable estimate (actual reports on Leaf forums ranged from 0.8-1.2 mi/kWh for autox and track day).

Even a SWAG for Ultra4 (King of the Hammers) came out to around 1 mi/kWh with a whole lot of uncertainty.

Someone here on GRM with an e-Golf said 1.5 mi/kWh for autocross

Team Arcblast in 24 Hrs of Lemons might be getting 2-3 mi/kWh

I didn't try to find anything about Teslas on track or autox, or EVSR, or PPIHC, or e-FSAE, etc.

 

Wow, did not have 'Nissan Leaf trackdays' on my GRM bingo card!!

I know of a few people using Bolts for autocross, and somewhere there's video evidence of one at the new western MA track (Palmer?)

Also I'm genuinely surprised learning about how quickly China is moving development forward!

STM317 said:

trigun7469 said:

In reply to dculberson :

It uses 1.2KWh per miles according to my car ( think it uses more energy), AI came up with the math.

 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Cx-90, however I question the accuracy because my daughters school is 10 miles round trip and we do it twice a day, barely makes it without using gas and is all street so it takes advantage of regenerative braking. Honestly the gas cx-90 version is so much better, I had the gas version for a week and it virtually had the same MPG with the start stop. Should have kept my cx9.

1.2mi/kwh is truly terrible efficiency. That's about half of what a Ford Lightning usually sees, and I've heard Hummer EV owners talking about getting above that on the highway. That's a bad enough number that I'm not sure I'd trust it honestly. I guess I can see it if you're parking outdoors and blasting HVAC for the whole trip.

PHEV efficiency does drop in colder months. Not sure how long you've had the CX-90, but it's very likely to see increased range and improved efficiency in warmer months when you can pack more energy into the battery, and use less range depleting HVAC.

Your charge time still seems really long though. Most owners are saying 11-12 hrs from 0-100% on a 120V outlet. Maybe your amperage is low on that circuit?

CX-90 has a 17.8 KWh battery, so it should take 10 hours to fully charge on a normal 15A circuit or 12 hours on 12A. 

If the vehicle is starting cold so the HVAC is trying to bring the (large) interior up to temp for the 10 mile drive, I can see how you'd see a significant hit to range given such a small battery. If you eat up 5 miles of range to heat a cold car and you have a 300 mile battery, you'll never notice. But if you have a 25 mile battery, that's a big hit.

The way to deal with that is to use the CX-90's ability to precondition the interior while it's still plugged in - you can schedule it or trigger it with your app. The nice thing about that is that the car is also warm when you get in :) This is actually a really nice feature that's not available to ICE.
https://www.mazdausa.com/static/manuals/2024/cx-90-phev/contents/66010700.html

Do plug in hybrids with preconditioning share coolant loops so the engine gets preheated as well as the battery and cabin?

Keith Tanner said:

STM317 said:

trigun7469 said:

In reply to dculberson :

It uses 1.2KWh per miles according to my car ( think it uses more energy), AI came up with the math.

 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Cx-90, however I question the accuracy because my daughters school is 10 miles round trip and we do it twice a day, barely makes it without using gas and is all street so it takes advantage of regenerative braking. Honestly the gas cx-90 version is so much better, I had the gas version for a week and it virtually had the same MPG with the start stop. Should have kept my cx9.

1.2mi/kwh is truly terrible efficiency. That's about half of what a Ford Lightning usually sees, and I've heard Hummer EV owners talking about getting above that on the highway. That's a bad enough number that I'm not sure I'd trust it honestly. I guess I can see it if you're parking outdoors and blasting HVAC for the whole trip.

PHEV efficiency does drop in colder months. Not sure how long you've had the CX-90, but it's very likely to see increased range and improved efficiency in warmer months when you can pack more energy into the battery, and use less range depleting HVAC.

Your charge time still seems really long though. Most owners are saying 11-12 hrs from 0-100% on a 120V outlet. Maybe your amperage is low on that circuit?

CX-90 has a 17.8 KWh battery, so it should take 10 hours to fully charge on a normal 15A circuit or 12 hours on 12A. 

If the vehicle is starting cold so the HVAC is trying to bring the (large) interior up to temp for the 10 mile drive, I can see how you'd see a significant hit to range given such a small battery. If you eat up 5 miles of range to heat a cold car and you have a 300 mile battery, you'll never notice. But if you have a 25 mile battery, that's a big hit.

The way to deal with that is to use the CX-90's ability to precondition the interior while it's still plugged in - you can schedule it or trigger it with your app. The nice thing about that is that the car is also warm when you get in :) This is actually a really nice feature that's not available to ICE.
https://www.mazdausa.com/static/manuals/2024/cx-90-phev/contents/66010700.html

Preconditioning the cabin isn't very common with PHEVs. That's a neat feature. I'm pretty sure the Mag tested a CX-90, and complained about not being able to precondition, but maybe there was an oversight, or I'm simply wrong.

Using heated seats is a more efficient way to stay warm in a PHEV to use less HVAC and retain as much range as possible.

My Fusion Energi is a decade older than the CX-90 phev, and it has a display that shows energy consumption in real time. HVAC can easily burn a rate of 7kw. With an 8kwh battery, that's something that I try to avoid as much as reasonably possible because it can cut available range by 30% pretty easily.