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BigD
BigD Reader
1/15/14 3:04 p.m.

Has anyone used this stuff in a track car? Especially a big boost one?

http://www.evanscoolants.com/evans_waterless_engine_coolants_faqs.html

I'm really skeptical. But I have a boosted S52 and it's a design known to run cyl 6 hotter than others. Some guys claim they can hear boiling at the back of the engine, shutting down after hard runs in boost - while gauge temps were OK.

So on one hand, it's got a much higher boiling point so there will be less chance of hot spots. But on the other, it apparently has 30% worse heat transfer than water, so while I may not be boiling it, it may not be cooling enough either...

rcutclif
rcutclif GRM+ Memberand Dork
1/15/14 3:14 p.m.

dont have any first-hand experience, but I always thought this stuff was mainly for classic (and probably mostly British) cars that can't run any pressure in the cooling system without generating issues. In modern cars, you can run higher temp coolant by increasing the pressure in the system. As long as the pressure stays in the cooling system, your fluid will not boil.

I guess I would look more towards products like water wetter... but im sure others have more actual experience on the issue.

BigD
BigD Reader
1/15/14 3:33 p.m.

Yeah that seems to be their target market but it seems like it could be a good idea for a track car, although it's probably slippery. I currently run water wettered water but I've yet to do a long track sprint to see how things go.

yamaha
yamaha PowerDork
1/15/14 3:39 p.m.

In reply to BigD:

A radiator with another row in it might be extremely benificial to your cause as well.....perhaps more so than something like this could.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/15/14 3:43 p.m.

In reply to BigD:

I'd get an accurate water temp gauge (preferably one that can record peak temperatures) and measure before making changes to the coolant and/or cooling system.

BigD
BigD Reader
1/15/14 3:47 p.m.

The problem this would address isn't coolant temperature but rather localized hotspots where the coolant boils as it passes, leaving even more heat behind, but as it continues it condenses again and the average water temp is acceptable.

NGTD
NGTD Dork
1/15/14 3:47 p.m.

My understanding of the Evans stuff is that even in a pressurized water/glycol or straight water system you can get localized hot spots where the fluid will boil, even though the rest of the system is still within proper temperature ranges. This stuff is supposed to be more resistant to that. I read a test of this in a magazine several years ago. I can't remember if it was GRM or something else.

Kenny_McCormic
Kenny_McCormic UltraDork
1/15/14 4:13 p.m.

In reply to NGTD:

I'd imagine such problems are problem more with older engines where the water jacket designs couldn't be computer optimized to eliminate slow spots.

BigD
BigD Reader
1/15/14 4:26 p.m.

Possibly also long 6 cylinder blocks boosted to 3-4x stock HP. I haven't found out for a fact if this is the problem but the general consensus seems to be that cyl 6 on the M5x family of engines runs hot.

pushrod36
pushrod36 New Reader
1/15/14 4:39 p.m.

Kenny's comment is one application where they market big. They have been trying to get into the class 8 truck market for awhile to promote fuel Economy via higher fan engagement temps. Trouble is that no one is testing under hood components at these higher temperatures.

curtis73
curtis73 GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/15/14 5:56 p.m.

Here is the theory with Evans (or any coolant for that matter)

First of all, discard everything you think you know about coolant temperatures. Coolant is the bucket in which heat gets carried away from the engine and dissipated in the radiator. The actual temperature of the coolant is only a factor in situations where the coolant boils. What happens with traditional EG and water is that it can boil at lower temperatures than straight coolant. People experience nucleate boiling at 230 degrees of indicated temperature, they blow a head gasket and get a warped head. From there on out, it is forever legend that and proof that 230 degrees can warp heads. This is far from the truth.

What happens is that the coolant mixture might be averaging 230 degrees at the sensor, but above the chambers it is beginning to boil. Everywhere its boiling, it doesn't have contact with water... which makes things hotter... which makes more boiling... which makes less contact. Then of course you have areas of extreme heat and areas that are still in contact with water. That is what causes the warping and head gasket failure.

The thought behind NPG is that when you remove the water, you remove the possibility of that nucleate boiling. At that point, the actual temperature of the coolant has very little to do with how effectively it transports heat. We're programmed to think that 220 degrees is too hot, but its only too hot because of the water in the coolant.

As long as heat out = heat in, the temperature will remain constant at or near thermostat temp.

One of the downfalls of NPG coolant is that it is not only less capable of carrying heat, it is slower to absorb and shed it. Its specific heat capacity is less than that of water, so depending on your vehicle, you may need increased airflow or a more efficient radiator to make sure that heat out is greater than heat in.

However, one of the points to NPG is that you can temporarily have greater heat in than heat out (increase in temperature) without much consequence. As long as your oil temps stay in check, (250 or less for conventional, 280-300 for synthetic), let the temperature rise. 300+ was a common thing to see in my Caddy 500 with Evans NPG on a long hill climb while towing.

Benefits: No pressure cap, so it has a greatly reduced chance of leaks or blown hoses. Increased lubricity for water pump. obvious benefits to rust reduction in the iron castings. No boiling. Hotter engines also tend to be healthier. Its so programmed into us to keep engines cool. We run cooler stats. The thing is, engines like to be hot (within reason of course). Without nucleate boiling, there are is less chance of detonation. That might be a nice benefit in a boosted application. When your car overheats and starts detonating, its not because 230 degrees is too hot. Those flame fronts are seeing 2000 degrees F. 10 more degrees of coolant temp isn't what is causing the detonation, its because the chambers have boiling coolant on the jacket. Its not the temperature of the chamber or the coolant, its because the timing advance is tuned assuming that the chambers and coolant are adequately moving heat away from combustion. When you get boiling, it can't pull that energy away and you get detonation. Put it this way... if you get detonation at 230 degrees with 50/50, that does not mean you'll get detonation with NPG at 230 degrees. The point is, without water to boil, Evans maintains constant contact and heat transfer regardless of its temperature

Drawbacks: When not running a pressure cap, you can experience a constant sweet smell of coolant. Without water, there is reduced heat capacity in the coolant so it may require increased efficiency elsewhere. Its expensive stuff.

It does have the nice benefit of not requiring an anti-cavitation additive in diesel applications. Diesel engines also tend to be much more thermally stable - larger capacity for coolant and oil, larger radiators, much more cast iron, etc. That is one of the reasons why its targeted at fleet applications. As you can imagine, a 3000-lb Detroit engine assembly that holds 19 gallons of coolant means that temperature rises would be gradual, but imagine a 1.5L aluminum 4-banger with a coolant capacity of 2 gallons. Temperature changes can be much more abrupt in the smaller engine.

As long as you understand that heat and temperature are linked but not equal, it makes sense. I liked Evans in my Caddy 500, but it wasn't really a big benefit. I can imagine it would be great in larger applications, but not a benefit in smaller applications.

You originally said, "So on one hand, it's got a much higher boiling point so there will be less chance of hot spots. But on the other, it apparently has 30% worse heat transfer than water, so while I may not be boiling it, it may not be cooling enough either..."

As long as its not boiling, and as long as it is not increasing temperature, it is cooling adequately. It doesn't really matter if its 180 degrees or 280. As long as you keep oil temps in check, it should be fine.

novaderrik
novaderrik PowerDork
1/15/14 6:20 p.m.

is there any way to run an external cooling line to take care of the hot spots instead of screwing around with different coolants?

curtis73
curtis73 GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
1/15/14 6:29 p.m.

In reply to novaderrik:

Why didn't you post that brilliant idea BEFORE I posted all that drivel?

novaderrik
novaderrik PowerDork
1/15/14 11:15 p.m.
curtis73 wrote: In reply to novaderrik: Why didn't you post that brilliant idea *BEFORE* I posted all that drivel?

i would have, but i didn't see this thread until after you posted it..

BigD
BigD Reader
1/16/14 7:59 a.m.

Thanks Curtis! Pretty much everything you said is in line with my thinking on this. I actually remember the Joe Gibbs oil guy telling me that people would faint if they saw the oil temps they run on some tracks - over 300, with water spewing out of the rad the whole time.

Would I want to run a hotter thermostat with this coolant? If it has lower heat transfer than water, then it should come out of the engine at a lower temp for the same engine temp than water right, since it evacuated less? So would it be better to let it circulate a little more before going through the rad?

iceracer
iceracer UberDork
1/16/14 9:24 a.m.

Easy way to raise the boiling point of conventional coolant is to raise the pressure.

curtis73
curtis73 GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/16/14 11:46 a.m.
iceracer wrote: Easy way to raise the boiling point of conventional coolant is to raise the pressure.

At the expense of reliability. Leaks and blowouts would be more common.

curtis73
curtis73 GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
1/16/14 11:57 a.m.
BigD wrote: Would I want to run a hotter thermostat with this coolant? If it has lower heat transfer than water, then it should come out of the engine at a lower temp for the same engine temp than water right, since it evacuated less? So would it be better to let it circulate a little more before going through the rad?

For the same stat temp, the Evans will leave the block at the same temp as regular coolant, it will just be carrying less heat energy with it. I would keep the same stat. That way you'll be running stock temps or higher during operation. You want to make sure you have enough temperature/heat in the engine to keep it healthy and sometimes lower stat temps don't let that happen. Oil temps need some time of sustained 215 degrees F or higher to evaporate out condensation, volatile HC, etc.

Some Evans users have noticed that the stat reduces flow of the NPG enough that it lets things get too hot even when fully open. Engineering comes into play there. I was able to fine tune my Caddy 500 with a freeze plug. The block bypass is cast into the engine directly under the stat. When the stat is open, some coolant still goes through the bypass back to the block instead of the radiator. I couldn't block it entirely unless I removed the stat, so I put a 1-7/8" freeze plug in it and drilled a 3/4" hole. That let enough through at cold start to keep the engine happy, but directed most of the flow through the radiator when the stat was open.

Some guys have turned their stat flange into swiss cheese with a 3/8" drill bit, which works if your stat has a big enough flange. One trick some guys do (if you have a stat with a rubber ring) is to leave the rubber ring off and seal the neck instead with a gasket. This lets the stat kinda "float" in that chamfer making a controlled leak so to speak.

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/16/14 12:02 p.m.

AND. Most sanctioning body's DO NOT want anything other than water in a car when on track. So for a track I would say that it probably would not fly due to the rules never mind the technical stuff about it.

Leafy
Leafy Reader
1/16/14 2:52 p.m.
dean1484 wrote: AND. Most sanctioning body's DO NOT want anything other than water in a car when on track. So for a track I would say that it probably would not fly due to the rules never mind the technical stuff about it.

What sanctioning bodies, besides lemons, chump, and circle track? Show me in the SCCA club racing GCR where the mythical line about water only exists.

I keep wanting to try evens, I keep ending up having a cooling system that isnt sealed well, and dont want to piss the money slowly out of the block.

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave MegaDork
1/16/14 4:22 p.m.

I think JG ran this stuff in the Fox or the 944.

curtis73
curtis73 GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
1/16/14 4:26 p.m.
I keep wanting to try evens, I keep ending up having a cooling system that isnt sealed well, and dont want to piss the money slowly out of the block.

That is a concern. I made sure my cooling system was super sealed. I didn't want to piss away $300 because I forgot to tighten a clamp.

BigD
BigD Reader
1/16/14 7:36 p.m.

Curtis: thanks again, very insightful!

RE: coolant in racing, that's why I qualified my original post with "track" car, not race car, as I've also always heard that racing bodies require water/water+water wetter only. So this is false?

Leafy
Leafy Reader
1/16/14 7:41 p.m.
BigD wrote: Curtis: thanks again, very insightful! RE: coolant in racing, that's why I qualified my original post with "track" car, not race car, as I've also always heard that racing bodies require water/water+water wetter only. So this is false?

It depends read the rules. Lemons only allows water and a bit of water wetter, chump allows only pure water, no water wetter. FSAE only allows water, and a small amount of corrosion inhibitor. SCCA has no rule. Every circle track rule book is water only. Its kind of a silly rule really. Most cars on the track are going to be running an oil cooler as well as a radiator and both are going to be pretty slick and have the same likelyhood of getting broken, and even straight water when it comes up unexpectedly with you running full out dry pace is going to cause issues.

BigD
BigD Reader
1/16/14 7:46 p.m.

Yeah, or hell even hitting barfed up water isn't likely to end well hitting it at full song. Good to know, thanks! I plan to run the car in time attack and they don't have such rules.

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