Learn me: German AWD for Motorsport.

I know a lot about the Japan awd systems and their implementation in various Motorsport. But know nothing about ze Germans. In particular, I would be using strictly for rallying. 
 

Vdub- all motion

bmw- x drive

merc- 4matic (I've heard early versions were terrible, but 2008+ was better) 

how bad are these systems for abuse on dirt?

My only experience is with X-drive. The front drive axle goes through the oil pan and I've heard that a drag race launch can crack the pan. I have to believe the traction loss/gain of running hard on dirt would be as bad for it.

You ask about German AWD for dirt without Audi Quattro?!?

Quattro is a true full-time AWD where the transmission houses the center and front diffs (who engine sits in front of the front axle). Various versions have locking or LS differentials. They are superb in dirt. Quattro is literally what made the WRC go AWD.

Note that some of the newer Audis are branded Quattro with a transverse FWD style Haldex setup (A3, S3, RS3, etc) and they suck. 

I'm a huge fan of old school Audi Quattros, but I wouldn't say Haldex sucks. The new RS3's and TTRS's are monsters on the drag strip. Look at what guys like Hank Iroz are doing with them. 
 

Old school mechanical Quattro definitely wins in terms of coolness though 

Focus RS count? 

They're not cheap right now though! 

In reply to Turbine :

In dirt. In corners. Yes, RS3's can drag race, but the Audi Haldex system is like 30% max to the rear and has no LS/lock for the front and rear diffs.

Javelin said:

You ask about German AWD for dirt without Audi Quattro?!?

 

Quattro is a true full-time AWD where the transmission houses the center and front diffs (who engine sits in front of the front axle). Various versions have locking or LS differentials. They are superb in dirt. Quattro is literally what made the WRC go AWD.

Note that some of the newer Audis are branded Quattro with a transverse FWD style Haldex setup (A3, S3, RS3, etc) and they suck. 

Only one I didn't mention because of those two reasons. The haldex system I've heard horror stories about. The Quattro systems usually come equipped on cars that are outlandishly expensive. I would like to keep things relatively cheap ish if possible (yes, I know, German and cheap are not relatable.)

Saron81 said:

Focus RS count? 

They're not cheap right now though! 

It's made in Germany, lol. I guess that counts? Still can't/won't afford one. 

Not to derail the thread, but I'm also curious if anyone knows how these compares to the Japanese systems. Mostly Subaru.

Seems that both Subaru and the Audi Quattro hang the engine out front with the transmission containing the front axle and center diff.

Just having day dreams here of a Benz saloon tarted up for rallying. 

Javelin said:

You ask about German AWD for dirt without Audi Quattro?!?

 

Quattro is a true full-time AWD where the transmission houses the center and front diffs (who engine sits in front of the front axle). Various versions have locking or LS differentials. They are superb in dirt. Quattro is literally what made the WRC go AWD.

Note that some of the newer Audis are branded Quattro with a transverse FWD style Haldex setup (A3, S3, RS3, etc) and they suck. 

"quattro" just means all wheel drive Audi, the Haldex ones count.  If you want to be a pedant and not count those, real quattros had lockable open diffs and none of that Torsen nonsense that they started using in 1989 or so...

WillG80 said:

Not to derail the thread, but I'm also curious if anyone knows how these compares to the Japanese systems. Mostly Subaru.

Seems that both Subaru and the Audi Quattro hang the engine out front with the transmission containing the front axle and center diff.

Subaru has made every type of all wheel drive you can think of.  FWD/4WD like a truck, open center diff, lockable bevel center diff, viscous locking center diff, clutch pack to the rear like Haldex, planetary center diff, computer controlled clutch lockup on a planetary center diff, cam and pawl center diff, Ferguson type system where there are no center or rear diffs, just a viscous coupler at each rear axle...

Subaru made a lot of transverse engined cars, we only got the Justy.  I think it'd be neat to have a Rex.  9000rpm 660cc engine!  

locally there are a number of b5 A4 audis running in awd rallycross. 1.8t cars mostly

Doesn't answer the OP's question but I thought this was a pretty cool video. 

Jason Cammisa on AWD Systems

I used to have an '87 Audi 5000CS Turbo Quattro with locking front and rear diffs and a manual transmission. 

The abuse that car took on dirt without breaking always amazes me. 

Javelin said:

In reply to Turbine :

In dirt. In corners. Yes, RS3's can drag race, but the Audi Haldex system is like 30% max to the rear and has no LS/lock for the front and rear diffs.

I don't know if maybe VW did something bad, but the Haldex in my Volvo feels waaaaaay better than my "Audi" did. (It was a VW but it was a 4000q drivetrain-wise)  The AWD system either understeered horribly or oversteered horribly with no in between and no finesse.  The Haldex equipped Volvo just works.

I am a tech geek. I like to think of how I can make anything I own "better".  I never HAVE these thoughts with the Haldex because it does everything I need it to do seamlessly and unobtrusively. It has no bad habits I would want to fix.  

Definitely gone now said:

Only one I didn't mention because of those two reasons. The haldex system I've heard horror stories about. The Quattro systems usually come equipped on cars that are outlandishly expensive. I would like to keep things relatively cheap ish if possible (yes, I know, German and cheap are not relatable.)

Audis aren't any more expensive than BMWs and are generally less than Benzes.

The haldex based vag can only do 50/50 at best and the programming varies wildly by model. The interesting vag cars that are awd carry a pretty hefty premium. 

It looks like the four Matic can go 35:65 Or 50-50 depending on mode selection

did they sell the Golf  AWD in the USA ?

Definitely gone now said:

Javelin said:

You ask about German AWD for dirt without Audi Quattro?!?

 

Quattro is a true full-time AWD where the transmission houses the center and front diffs (who engine sits in front of the front axle). Various versions have locking or LS differentials. They are superb in dirt. Quattro is literally what made the WRC go AWD.

Note that some of the newer Audis are branded Quattro with a transverse FWD style Haldex setup (A3, S3, RS3, etc) and they suck. 

Only one I didn't mention because of those two reasons. The haldex system I've heard horror stories about. The Quattro systems usually come equipped on cars that are outlandishly expensive. I would like to keep things relatively cheap ish if possible (yes, I know, German and cheap are not relatable.)

There's at least one more you didn't mention. Hint, it's the only one that has the engine in roughly the right place for rally use.

I don't actually know anything about it, but I've always been curious how it would work out for rallycross.

californiamilleghia said:

did they sell the Golf  AWD in the USA ?

 

Sort of, not a base model. Golf R and Golf wagon get it. 

In reply to dps214 :

The mid engine haldex? 

In reply to Slippery :

So that's why Focus RSs overheat on track. I wondered about those.

Get an ur-s4

a few that rallycross locally