Learn me Porsche 924s

924guy wrote: - top end: yep, the head was intentionally restricted to keep it from being faster than the rest of the Porsche line up. there are a few who have built big valve heads with good results, it aint easy or cheap though. but dont forget, the gts were making over 400 hp on the 2.0 block in some cases, reliably, so there is potential.

You probably know this already but the Turbo had a completely different cylinder head, at least in Europe.

The earlier 924S are also detuned compared to the 944 (150hp instead of 160hp, again, that's in Europe) otherwise the 924S would be faster than the 944 due to the lower drag.

I think the US market really drew the short straw in case of the 924, the Euro models have noticeably more power (around 125hp). Not that they're massively fast but it's a little better than 90...

Turboswede: Impressive, where did all that intake hardware come from? What are you using to control it?

turboswede wrote: M030, who did you have do the port work on your head? Did they provide you any flow numbers for the ports? Did you do any tuning on the fuel/ignition systems? Any changes in compression? How about the camshaft? Just curious.

The head was done, at great expense, by a west-coast company called Eurorace. The intake ports were opened up from 105cc to 111cc and the exhaust ports from 57cc to 64cc. The head flowed 152cfm at 28in before porting and 188cfm at 28in after porting.

I was running a 249-degree duration/.475" lift cam. Compression ratio was increased from 8.0:1 to 9.0:1.

Carburetors were dual side-draft Weber 40 IDF

I have more detailed flow specs (port-by-port, before & after) if you're interested.

I have an extremely hard time believing that Porsche screwed up thing so that an increase in flow like the one you mentioned, with more camshaft and more compression, wouldn't create an increase in power unless they used drinking straws for an intake manifold, metaphorically speaking. So what I'm taking away from this is, the first thing to do on these cars would be to get a good flowing intake setup first, then go attacking the thing in other ways.

It also fits; put a garbage intake on the motor if you're buying them by the crate and you want to limit output on the cheap. It would be a lot cheaper and easier to go this route vs. pulling the VW van head off and replacing it with their own worse flowing head. An intake is a lot simpler casting with a lot simpler engineering requirements.

Really curious what that ITB setup will produce up thread.

The original 924 (1976.5 sold as a 1977) had 95 hp. This was increased to 110, but I can't remember exactly which year. Maybe 1979? Then in 1980 you could get the Audi 5-speed (the one without the dog-leg first). In 1981 it went to a lambda-sensor injection.

David

In reply to DWNSHFT:

77.5 got the upgrade to 110 hp us version. us version also got the cat at about the same time.. ...

79-80 got the porsche designed transaxle, great for racing, easier to replace parts (that broke more often) and lighter weight. not so great for daily drivers, they went back to the audi design in 81. ...

MO30- sorry you spent so much on the eurorace head... as i said initially, Some have had success with big valve heads. none that i know of had commercially available successful units. Which is a shame.

the 924 was never meant to be a 1/4 mile king, its a road car, and thats where it excels and why im so fond of them.

pres589 wrote: Turboswede: Impressive, where did all that intake hardware come from? What are you using to control it?

Intake is from eBay (probably from Pierce originally) just a standard DCOE intake for the 924. The throttle bodies are from eBay and are TWM DCOE units that someone bought for their Triumph, never used and then put on eBay in the wrong spot so I scored them for cheap (around $300 I think, I didn't save the stupid page or the receipt, etc)

Control will be MegaSquirt 1 with the extra code and eventually I'll up it to MS3.

I finished the distributorless igntion pulley so I'll have EDIS as well. Add in a knock sensor and a wideband oxygen sensor and I should have a going concern on my hands.

There's a picture someone took of a dissected/sectioned 924 and 924 turbo intake and exhaust port. Once you see them, you'll know why they don't respond well to bolt on modifications until the cylinder head flow is fixed.

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=20953

and by fixed, I mean significant reshaping needed on top of larger valve faces and smaller valve stems.

Lighter followers and properly sized valve springs should help the engine breath at higher rpms, once you get ports that will fill the cylinders at those speeds :)

924guy wrote: MO30- sorry you spent so much on the eurorace head... as i said initially, Some have had success with big valve heads. none that i know of had commercially available successful units. Which is a shame.

Don't get me wrong, I loved my '81 924, and the head work was very well done. I was just more than a little bummed to spend $1600 - in 1995 dollars - to see a 0-hp gain.

I think at this point in time, the most cost effective 924 engine modification would be an LSx swap

BTW I still own a 924(S)

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/reader-rides/2427/

pres589 wrote:

M030 wrote: When I sold the 924, I replaced it with an 86 944 Turbo that cost a little more than all of my engine mods and, even in stock form, was a much faster car.

Which would be an easier car to live with every day though, a 924 or a 944? It always sounds like maintenance on the 944 is a higher cost & more involved prospect, what's your take on that?

A 944 Turbo is more complex that a normally aspirated 944. That is due to the turbo, all the plumbing and the easy power ($300 chip = 40 hp easy).

However the operating cost difference between a 944 (non turbo) and 924 is minimal. It will make a bigger difference what the initial condition of the car is more than which car you chose. Now considering the same mechnaical condition the 944 is more car as compared to the 924. The 944 Turbo is even more as well, but may cost more to keep running.

Remeber 924 = 2.0L - 95-110 hp (they seem to constant change year by year however) 944/924S = 2.5L (147-158) hp (very consistant over the years despite the variations in published numbers) 944 Turbo = 2.5L Turbo 8 valve 217 hp 944 Turbo S = 2.5L Turbo 8 valve 247 hp.

There are also these 944 variations 89 944 = 2.7l 162hp 944S = 2.5l 16valve = 188 hp 944S2 =3.0 16 valve = 208 hp and 968 - 3.0L 16 valve - 236 hp

wow, early watercooled get a lot of love on this board.

I think if I had to buy a "cheap" Porsche it would be a 924S. yeah, the 944 is a bit wider, but the look of a 924 is growing on me... a 944 S2 3.0 swap might be fun in that car...

Ditch the big reflectors on the sides of the 924 and shorten the bumper shocks and the 924 is a pretty sleek package. With some slightly newer 16" wheels, it looks pretty good, IMHO.

A 924S was recently given the 951 treatment in Germany and featured in a Porsche mag. Very impressive piece and damned fast.

All this talk of 924s makes me want one.

BoxheadTim wrote: You probably know this already but the Turbo had a completely different cylinder head, at least in Europe.

When I built my 924 engine, I considered the 924 Turbo head. Here's what talked me out of it:

"The turbo head has a small dish to the combustion area and requires special pistons to bring compression up. The improved flow of gases in the turbo head is realized only above 6800rpm" - Excellence Magazine, April 1988, p. 66, "924 Engine and Transmission Hints" by Jim Pasha.

Yeah...I totally want to find a 924 now with a junk engine. Plus LSx and win!
Basically, though...I should just buy an LSx and THEN find the next no-engine-having car to stuff it into.

Clem

Forged VW Flat top pistons are available for cheap to up the compression ratio to work with the 931 head.

Honestly, go read the 8 pages on that link I posted. You'll see the 931 head doesn't really matter that much other than the easier to change plugs.

Found this on Rennlist. Interesting info on MSRP and some product info over the years.

From 10k to 50k in 15 years.

All of this info is correct it is directly from Porsche

924

Statistics 2+2 hatchback coupe, liquid-cooled front engine, rear transaxle, 2623 lbs.

Where built: Neckarsulm, West Germany (Audi assembly plant)

First introduced: May 1976, as a 1977 model.

1977 [MSRP $9,395]

2.0-liter, OHC 4-cylinder, 95 hp, 8.0:1 compression ratio CIS fuel injection, electronic ignition Catalytic converter on California models only 4-speed manual transaxle 5-1/2x14 steel wheels Front MacPherson struts, torsion bar/trailing arm in rear Front disc, rear drum brakes Optional equipment: 3-speed automatic, front and rear sway bars, air-conditioning, removable roof VIN range 9247230001 - 9247235789 Underpowered, but light weight and good balance make it a pleasant car for those on a budget. Watch for rust on the front fenders, as only the main body was galvanized.

1977-1/2 Model Year

110 hp, 8.5:1 compression ratio Catalytic converter on all models Increase in horsepower made this a slightly better performer.

1978 [MSRP $11,325]

Oval section muffler and tailpipe Rear suspension modified for easier vehicle height adjustment Optional equipment: Alloy wheels, front and rear speed bars, Koni shocks, electric antenna, windows, mirror, headlight washers, rear wiper, foglamps VIN range 9248200001 - 9248211638 Significantly improved in amenities and comfort over previous year.

1979 [MSRP $14,600]

5-speed manual transaxle (standard), with 928-style shift pattern 6x14 alloy wheels (standard) Optional equipment: Limited slip differential VIN range 9249200001 - 9249209636 Addition of the 5-speed transaxle turns this into a much more flexible vehicle. It’s especially comfortable at highway speeds, giving excellent fuel economy and low noise.

1980 [MSRP $15,900]

Lambda control system added to CIS fuel injection New (different) 5-speed transaxle Power windows (standard) Outside mirror with mechanical adjustment from inside Optional equipment: Sport group with 15" alloy wheels, rear disk brakes, larger stabilizer bars, rear spoiler from Turbo VIN range 92A0410001 - on Though still underpowered, the 924 became much more pleasant to operate, due largely to the new Lambda emission control system.

1981 [MSRP $16,770]

Front anti-sway bar (standard) 7 year limited anti-corrosion warranty Optional equipment: “Weissach” package, primarily a paint and interior combination, sold in very limited quantities VIN range WPOAAO92_BN450001 - on

1982 [MSRP $16,900]

Three-spoke steering wheel Optional equipment: Rear spoiler VIN range WPOAAO92_CN450001 - on

924 Turbo Statistics Turbocharged version of the base car, with a modified engine to accommodate the higher output. Items listed are unique to this model; 2822 lbs.

1980 [MSRP $20,875]

143 hp Front anti-sway bar (standard) 6x15 alloy wheels 1979 version transmission, with 928 style shift pattern Rear spoiler Optional equipment: 16” alloy wheels, larger front and rear anti-sway bars VIN range 93AO150001 - on Updated and improved exhaust and turbochargers have been available for years. Check with your service department to see if they have been installed previously.

1981 [MSRP $21,500]

154 hp Computerized ignition system, similar to DME 7 year limited anti-corrosion warranty Optional equipment: “S” suspension package includes 16” wheels with 5 lugs, disc brakes all around, heavier shocks, springs and anti-sway bars VIN range WPOAAO93_BN150001 - on

When equipped with the “S” package, the turbo was rated by "Car and Driver" as one of three best handling cars in the world, surpassed only by a Ferrari and a Lamborghini.

1982 [MSRP $21,500]

Limited slip differential (standard) VIN range WPOAAO93_CN150001 - on

924 S

Statistics Re-introduction of 924 body style to U.S., with 944 driveline. First introduced: May 1986, as a 1987 model

1987 [MSRP $19,900]

Though it’s called a 924, this car is physically a 1984 944 without fender flares Optional equipment: Sunroof, radio, limited slip differential, cruise control, wheel locks, electric antenna, anti-sway bars VIN range WPOAAO92_HN450001 - on

Introduced into the market as an “attainable” Porsche, by reviving the 924 body with the 944 drivetrain.

1988 [MSRP $26,560]

158 hp, due to increase in compression ratio to 10.2:1 Engine oil level warning light Larger sway bars (standard) Optional equipment: Sport seats, alarm, cruise control, Special Edition package with new interior and upgraded suspension VIN range WPOAAO92_JN450001 - on

This was the last year for the 924 S, and the best one, due mainly to the horsepower increase. As this car has a base weight of 44 lbs. less than a 944, and trimmer aerodynamics (no fender flares), it has quite surprising performance compared to 944s. Many more options available than 1987 model.

944

Statistics 2+2 hatchback coupe, liquid-cooled front engine, rear transaxle; 2778 lbs.

Where built: Neckarsulm, West Germany (Audi assembly plant); all engines were built and tested at Porsche factory in Zuffenhausen.

First introduced: April 1982, as a 1983 model

1983 [MSRP $18,980]

2.5-liter, OHC 4-cylinder with twin counter balance shafts 143 hp, 9.5:1 compression ratio DME fuel and ignition system 5-speed manual transaxle w/synchronized reverse 7x15 alloy wheels 4-wheel disc brakes Front anti-sway bar Front foglamps Rear spoiler Electrically operated and heated mirrors Air-conditioning Removable roof Electric windows Optional equipment: Power steering, larger front anti-sway bar, rear sway bar, 8x15 rear wheels, 3-speed automatic VIN range WPOAAO94_DN450001 - on Although clearly a derivation of the 924, introduction of the 944 was met with much fanfare, as the aggressive fender flares and the Zuffenhausen-built high torque engine brought the 4-cylinder cars closer to the hard-core enthusiast. "Car and Driver" named it the best handling car in America. A real performance bargain, especially at today’s pre-owned car prices.

1984 [MSRP $21,440]

Power steering now standard Electric rear hatch release Optional equipment: Electric tilting sunroof, cruise control, leather seats VIN range WPOAAO94_EN450001 - on

1985 [RP $21,440]

essentially unchanged from 1984 VIN range WPOAAO94_FN450001 - on

1985-1/2 [MSRP $22,950]

Idle stabilizer on DME, gives a constantly regulated idle speed New dashboard design with more instrumentation, new switches, four-spoke wheel and central warning system Flush-mounted windshield with integrated antenna Entirely new electrical system, fuse panel now under hood for easier access Larger polymer fuel tank Full climate control system Partial power seat on driver’s side Lighter cast alloy suspension arms, front and rear Telephone dial style wheels, 7x15 Optional equipment: 7x15 front and 8x15 rear forged wheels, full power seats

This model represents a big step forward toward more comfort and amenities in the 4-cylinder range, creating a clear separation from the 924 derived previous models. Most of these improvements are not noticeable from outside the vehicle.

1986 [MSRP $24,500]

first year for third brake light 10 year limited anti-perforation corrosion warranty Optional equipment: Raised hub steering wheel, central locking, full leather interior, club sport suspension VIN range WPOAAO94_GN450001 - on

Rated one of the “ten best” by "Car and Driver" for the fourth year in a row. 5-year/50,000 mile drivetrain warranty means most likely dealer serviced and repaired.

1987 [MSRP $27,840]

Revised suspension geometry allows use of ABS Protective side moldings (standard) Optional equipment: airbags, ABS, 16” 928 style forged alloys VIN range WPOAAO94_HN470001 - on

1988 [MSRP $30,995]

158 hp, due to increase in compression ratio to 10.2:1 Engine oil level warning light Central locking (standard) Rear anti-sway bar and larger front anti-sway bar (standard) VIN range WPOAAO94_JN450001 - on

1989 [MSRP $33,245]

2.7-liter, 10.9:1 compression ratio, and 162 hp Alarm system with flashing LEDs in lock buttons (standard) ABS (standard) Cruise control (standard) Power tilt sunroof (standard) VIN range WPOAA094_KN450001 - on VIN range WPOAA294_KN450001 - on, with airbags

944 Turbo

Statistics First introduced: September 1985, as a 1986 model; 2899 lbs.

1986 [MSRP $29,800]

2.5-liter, OHC 4-cylinder, 217 hp, 8.0:1 compression ratio DME\KLR fuel, ignition and boost control system Water-cooled turbocharger with intercooler External engine oil cooler 5-speed transaxle stronger than standard 944, with oil cooler 7x16 front, 8x16 rear wheels, telephone-dial style 4-piston alloy brake calipers, brake pads w/o asbestos Aerodynamically improved front end Cowl panel under rear bumper 10 year anti-perforation corrosion warranty VIN range WPOAAO95_GN150001 - on

The 944 Series now reaches supercar status! New technology in engine management and the water-cooled turbo make this a strong, reliable performance car, with 74 more horsepower than the base model. Additional improvements in suspension, brakes, wheels and tires round out the performance refinements. 5-year/50,000 mile drivetrain warranty means it’s likely to have been dealer serviced and repaired. It’s currently considered a “Best Buy” among Porsche performance enthusiasts.

1987 [MSRP $36,300]

Revised suspension geometry allows use of ABS Airbags are standard equipment Optional equipment: ABS, sport suspension VIN range WPOAAO95_HN150001 - on

1988 [MSRP $39,765]

Engine oil level warning light Improved exhaust manifold to aid serviceability Optional equipment: “S” package includes 247 HP engine, sport suspension and brakes, club sport wheels, limited slip, cruise control, and a number of interior features. Also available are speaker and amplifier upgrades VIN range WPOAAO95_JN150001 - on

The “S” package proved to be another dramatic increase in performance for the 944 Series. It is actually built to the specifications of the 944 Turbo Cup race series, held in Europe. The additional 30 hp, 928 brakes and sport suspension with externally adjustable Koni shocks have made this car a “PCA track event” favorite. Initially expensive, this model now represents an outstanding value on the pre-owned car market.

1989 [MSRP $44,900]

“S” package is now standard equipment Cruise control (standard) 1 key central locks and alarm (standard) ABS (standard) Amplifier and speaker package (standard) Electric tilt sunroof (standard) VIN range WPOAA295_KN150001 - on

The last year for the Turbo, and undoubtedly the best.

944 S

Statistics First introduced: October 1986, as a 1987 model

1987 [MSRP $30,850]

2.5-liter, DOHC 4-cylinder with new 16-valve head, dual knock sensors 188 hp, 10.9:1 compression ratio New generation DME requires no idle or fuel mixture adjustment “Self-Diagnosis” system allows easier engine servicing “16 Ventiler” on front of door guards Optional equipment: Airbags, ABS, sport suspension VIN range WPOAAO94_HN450001 - on

The first year for the 944 S brought a significant increase in top end horsepower (28 percent) and torque (21 percent).

1988 [MSRP $36,830]

Engine oil level warning light Airbags (standard) VIN range WPOAAO94_JN460001 - on

944 S2

Statistics First introduced: February 1989, as a 1989 model, 2886 lbs.

1989 [MSRP $41,900]

3.0-liter, 208 hp, resonant induction External engine oil cooler, like 944 Turbo Stronger transmission than 944 Turbo Turbo body ABS (standard) Driver and passenger airbags (standard) Turbo suspension and brakes (regular model, not the “S”) 7x16 front, 8x16 rear wheels Optional equipment: Limited slip, sport chassis VIN range WPOAB294_KN450001 - on

The combination of the Turbo body and chassis with the new, powerful 3.0-liter engine produced the most well-rounded 944 combination yet.

1990 Coupe [MSRP $41,900], Cabriolet [$48,600]

Cabriolet now available, as of September 1989 Rear window wiper (standard on Coupe) Optional equipment: Sport suspension (same as ’89 turbo) VIN range WPOAB294_LN450001 - on, Coupe VIN range WPOCB294_LN480001 - on, Cabriolet

1991 Coupe [MSRP $43,350], Cabriolet [$50,350]

Minor refinements to the DME system “Check engine” monitor lamp Optimized suspension bushings Brake pad wear sensors on all eight pads New rear spoiler on coupe Improved alarm/central locking system VIN range WPOAB294_MN440001 - on, Coupe VIN range WPOCB294_MN480001 - on, Cabriolet

With prices so low for the 944 and 924S models, there really doesn't seem to be much sense in buying a standard 924. There is a pretty clean 944 for sale just down the street for $2,300. You will easily spend more than $1K bringing a stock 924 up to 944 specs.

I've always loved these cars, but I wouldn't consider a 924 unless it was the later (86-88) 924S.

In reply to Joe Gearin:

Yeah, I just sold a decent 944 for less than $3K. In fact, 944 Turbos are so cheap now, it almost doesn't make sense to buy an NA 944.

I totally agree with Joe. After driving both, the 924S is such a better car for around the same money, the early one's just don't make sense unless you have a sentimental attachment or need one for a collection. The early cars have a lot more VW-Audi, the S, more Porsche. Parts aren't significantly cheaper either.

Having owned a 944NA and a Turbo, there isn't much choice here either, the Turbo is that much better. If you don't have to buy a replacement turbo, upkeep costs are similar if you do a lot of the work yourself. Or just spring for a S2 or 968.

That said, between a 924S and a NA 944, the choice is about the same. They are essentially the same car with a different body. You can fit a wider wheel and tire under the 944, but the 924 is lighter and a bit faster. Take your pic.

I disagree on the 951 vs 944. Besides the fact that's not any 951's for sale out here at any price, when's the last time you could pick one up with near-perfect paint & interior, full service records from new, good options like the LSD and sport suspension, for under Chanllenge money? Because that's what I paid for my NA 944, and it's an 86 to boot, not an early car. Closest priced 951's I've seen are in the $4000-$6000 range. My 944 wasn't a fluke either, I had 3-5 to pick from at any given time locally. A lot more of them were built than the Turbo.

A friend of mine had a new one back in the day. I remember it being as slow as mollasses even though it handled well. Later he added an aftermarket tubocharger and the Carerra GT body kit with wheels/tires and had a decent car. Unfortunately it was destroyed in a barn fire during winter storage.

In reply to Javelin:

Market must be different down here in the south. I had a guy make an eight hour round trip to buy car for close to $3K without seeing it. It didn't have any service records, or good options. The interior was decent and the paint was a very aged 10 footer respray, maybe a 20 footer. The car you describe is more like a $4K car around here.

By the way, weren't you posting gawd awful 944 beaters in the $2500-$3000 range a while back? You must have found a deal!

I found a few nice ones that I posted as well, a very clean low-mileage 2-owner 83, a fully refreshed 85.5, and the one I eventually bought. All were less then $3K advertised, and all were "OBO". But yeah, there were some uglies in there as well.

I dunno, maybe I did get "a deal" as I have been offered double what I paid for the car already. It's hard to tell since there's no 951's for sale up here (outdise of the one that was abandoned in a field for 15 years for $3500...).

Sorry, I had to remove a few posts while tracking down the phanotm site-killer. Let's see if it was effective...