Lexus LC500h

So this may or may not be very relevant to anyone else's interests here, but I just found out that Lexus is going to produce a hybrid version of their new LC coupe called the LC500h.

Naturally, the first thing I deduced from the headlines popping up after a Google search was that this thing was going to have 354hp.

Now, the last time a six-figure hybrid came out with ~350hp (BMW i8), I pretty quickly got on Facebook and derided that as reminding me of a 20-year-old Corvette. After reading up on it, it ended up being one of my favorite current-production-cars-i-cant-afford and ironically totally undermined any enthusiasm I had for the then-upcoming NSX. I ended up being drawn to its unusual combination of attributes, and despite what the power number suggested, it was still fast enough for 2015.

Obviously the LC500h is not all that similar to an i8 other than being a six-figure hybrid sports coupe with ~350hp of peak system output, but partially because of the i8 I'm looking at it from a much more receptive point of view than I would have a few years ago.

There's another reason I'm receptive to the idea of the LC500h: My GS450h ownership. For the last six months I've had an '09 GS450h as the 'flagship' of my ill-advised 'fleet', and I am LOVING it. It's rated at 340hp peak combined output, but (like an i8, or LC500h!) actually feels faster than it sounds, especially considering it weighs 4100 lbs. Knowing that the LC500h will use an updated and upgraded version of this drivetrain is exciting to me, even if the whole 'gas hybrid' concept is considered obsolete by the time they depreciate into my price range.

One of the things that the auto press seem to be making a mountain out of is the '4 speed auto' aspect of the LC500h. I think it's being misrepresented, for the most part. For those who don't know, the basic idea of Toyota's hybrid architecture for the past two decades (yes, it has been that long!) is to use a planetary gearset with two inputs (ICE and electric motor) instead of one input and one held/locked element as is usually the case with planetary gearsets in transmissions. Using a planetary gearset with one input, one held element, and one output results in a fixed gear ratio. This is where the gear ratios of nearly all 'old-school' automatic transmissions come from. However, using a planetary gearset with two variable speed inputs and one output gives a variable gear ratio that allows a Toyota hybrid transmission to behave as a CVT while being massively more reliable and less complex than the belt-and-pulleys contraption that most people conjure in their mind. The 'ratio spread' that can be achieved with this arrangement is limited by the rpm ranges of the inputs (gas engine and electric motor), so it is only infinitely variable within a certain range.

My 09 GS450h differs from earlier iterations of the system (such as in my 07 Prius) in that it adds a second planetary gearset with a clutch that locks one of the elements (the other two elements are driven by the ICE/small motor combo, and by the 2nd larger electric motor) which effectively makes it a CVT feeding another 2-spd gearbox. The LC500h takes this a step further by including 4 fixed ratios behind its CVT. The net effect of this is to widen the ratio spread of the entire hybrid transmission. This increase in 'gearing under the curve' should result in stronger acceleration. The 1st gen GS450h like mine is claimed to do 0-60 in 5.2 seconds (and the car is definitely very traction limited) @4100 lbs. I suspect the exact same system would be well into the 4s in a lighter chassis with more traction. The fact that Lexus is only claiming a 'sub-5-second' 0-60 from this improved setup makes me suspect it is being throttled to protect the 4.5s gas car with its 100+ additional horsepower. Aside from that, it seems the main point that Lexus is talking up about this new '4-spd CVT' is that it will create a more intuitive (old fashioned?) relationship between ICE rpm and wheel speed so that it's more enjoyable and palatable to buyers.

I'm pretty ok with selling it that way, but I think what's being downplayed in the '4 gears is so old fashioned!' blurbs is that it still functions as a continually variable ratio transmission in all the best ways.

Knowing what my GS450h drives like, it's very exciting to me to think of a super-luxurious Lexus sport coupe taking the same great cruising and WOT experience and cranking it up a notch in the dynamic areas that driving enthusiasts care about, where what happens when you let off the gas, or the first tenth of a second after you floor it, are important to the overall experience. I hope I'll get to drive one of these things in the next few years.

You're not wrong about anything you wrote, but where is the audience for these cars? They're not selling to eco-conscious people, and they're not selling to performance halo type people. They're quicker than they should be, but they're not fast by fast car standards and I don't think they're going to be until they go with a hyper car type AWD system and feed it through actually wide sticky tires. They're creeping up on something special, but they're not quite there yet.

Hard to say. BMW had 4-month wait times for the i8 when it launched and decided to 'double production' shortly after, yet it is still a very low production and probably low-profit car. I suppose these types of cars do little for the manufacturers other than build prestige, at least initially. The one obvious defense for this car vs the ground-up i8 (which seems to have worked out for BMW) is that the LC was going to happen whether they did a hybrid or not, and i doubt it took much money to adapt most of the pre-existing hybrid bits from a Lexus GS in with a new transmission. The actual new technology, in the transmission, will probably filter down through Toyota's expansive hybrid range over time, so it probably doesn't need to pay for itself in this application.

More broadly, the car itself reflects the desire to take the Lexus brand up a notch and create a truly memorable car. Lexus has a lot of great products, but they definitely have an 'impact' problem. Look at the original IS-F: Much loved at the time, still portrayed by enthusiasts as a fantastic vehicle, but largely forgettable in all the hoopla of ever-increasing performance unless you're already driving one. Perhaps for lack of a wagon version with manual trans? Something to take a hopped up sedan out of the pure numbers=prestige game of 2000hp Lambos running half mile events on 1320Video where anything stock from 2008 is irrelevant, to make it memorable against a scale that doesn't recalibrate every year? I do think based on looks alone, i'll still look over my shoulder to watch an LC500 passing by in years to come in a way i don't look at 'old' Lexuses today (my own included).

I can't read the text because of that trainwreck of an image. It's like a car designer took a bunch of acid and then stared at Hot Wheels cars and George Barris portfolios.

I am reminded of the RS200. Not the design specifically, but I'm reminded of a story I heard about when the RS200 was being designed. The Ford managers insisted that whatever design was used would use a production Ford Sierra windshield, because otherwise the designers would make something with an extremely small and cramped greenhouse.

When your wheelwells take up more visual space than the car's greenhouse, you have failed at automotive design.

They are targeting middle and upper management wended who want to appear affluent and enjoy toys without impacting the money for their trophy wife's Botox treatments.

Knurled wrote: I can't read the text because of that trainwreck of an image.

agreed

Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: They are targeting middle and upper management wended who want to appear affluent and enjoy toys without impacting the money for their trophy wife's Botox treatments.

Huge wheels are low class, though. They're what people without money think people with money have.

The i8 looks like a spaceship. If it looked like a squashed 5 series nobody would buy one. There is a TON of visual and tech distance between it and the rest of the BMW lineup.
Your GS is the complete opposite of that. It's like Toyota was embarrassed that it was using hybrid stuff and didn't want anyone to know. I'm worried that the LC500 will be like that. Hard to say.
When I look at the i8 it pretty much had to be a hybrid to make sense departing from the product line that much. If they had just put in an M3 engine it would have been pointless. I wonder if the LC500 will benefit from the hybrid more than it would have benefitted from a pair of turbos blowing another 250hp out of the motor. Clearly Toyota thinks hybrid is more important, and you can see Honda feels the same way with the new NSX.

I saw it in person at the Detroit auto show and it was just about my favorite thing I saw. It looks like a concept, but is going into production. That is all.

I wonder if the LC500 will benefit from the hybrid more than it would have benefitted from a pair of turbos blowing another 250hp out of the motor. Clearly Toyota thinks hybrid is more important, and you can see Honda feels the same way with the new NSX.

I would bet that as long as a Supra is anywhere in the plan, the Lexus is never going to use power as its primary selling point.

I think Lexus is just trying to find the right combination of attributes that will both get them in with the crowd they're actually interested in having as customers, and get people who will never buy the car to like it enough to talk it up. There are people in this thread I wouldnt want as customers even if they could afford my 6 figure car. Perhaps the same sort of people who were not impressed with the LF-A because it didn't win drag races against obese GT-Rs with AWD. Lexus is struggling to release halo products that appeal to the peanut gallery who can't or won't actually drive one, but once they get the cars into hands of owners their halo products are generally well-regarded. I think a modern-looking flashy coupe is sufficiently relatable to people who can't afford an LC that it's at least a step in the right direction as far as engendering some Lexus Aspirations.

When your wheelwells take up more visual space than the car's greenhouse, you have failed at automotive design.

Welcome to sporty cars circa 2016. Even my Dodge Magnum was like this. I had no problem with it. Camaros seem to sell. I think people who struggle with outward visibility as it relates to spatial awareness probably shouldn't worry about performance cars in general. Studies show a strong correlation between people who desire a commanding view of the outside world and crossover buyers, so maybe start there. But, if you'd like to spread your viewpoint further, there's a thread a couple inches below mine where Sonic buys a Mercedes CLS that also fits your criteria (and went for LC500h money before it depreciated to the point of being enthusiastically received at GRM).

Knurled wrote: When your wheelwells take up more visual space than the car's greenhouse, you have failed at automotive design.

Really?

I think you might not be the expert at that

because the industry has spoken and it seems your views are outmoded.

I think the Lexus LC is gorgeous.

Vigo wrote:

I think Lexus is just trying to find the right combination of attributes that will both get them in with the crowd they're actually interested in having as customers, and get people who will never buy the car to like it enough to talk it up.

You're right on with this. We'll have to see how it plays out.