Lightest mid-engine car?

Dude, all this crap listed and the only A) REAL and B) obtainable cars listed have been the x1/9  and 914. 

Let me introduce you to the aw11 mr2. Cheap, plentiful. Relatively light. Obtainable by all. 

Porsche 550 Spyder. 1300lbs wet. 

From my measurements, a standard FWD Toyota drive train would fit in an Europa with minimal frame modifications.  A notch here and there and a bit welded on for a motor mount and that would about do it.  Yeah, I built a new frame for one, but the front of the frame was toast, or Swiss Cheese, anyway.

The Audi boxes would be a good one to use.  There are a couple around with motor swaps and P-car boxes.  I think both behind 2ZZ motors.  4AG swaps are out there, with an almost complete kit available, using the Renault boxes. 

In reply to Stefan :

When the engine, transmission, and differential are all one assembly, launching does not tend to twist the chassis into a pretzel. So another longitudinal FWD to add to your list could even be the Cadillac 500/THM425.

Plenty of Europas have been fitted with Zetec's and 4AGE's...Even if it couldn't win the drags, or even the Autox, I bet somebody here could figure it out on a Challenge budget just for the sheer cool-factor.   There has also apparently even been Mazda rotary and Honda H22 powered Europae. Outside of that, it doesn't have to be the engine that came with the transmission.  Pretty much anything that can physically be adapted to an Audi or Subaru box could be considered.  And beyond that, I'm sure something could even be contrived for using a sport-bike engine.

Even if the back half, or even the whole car, ended up with a completely redesigned chassis, it wouldn't necessarily be any less awesome...And might even end up more so.

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Stefan said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Stefan :

ye of little faith.  

How many modern longitudinal FWD drivetrains do you know of?

Old FWD Audi/odd-ball VW rebrands of Audi's?

Chrysler LH/Prowler? - Electronic Automatic only

Acura Legend? - Electronic Automatic only

Now of those choices, what would you use to repower a Europa?

How many would actually fit the engine bay?

How much weight would you need to add in bracing to keep the chassis from becoming a pretzel on the first Solo or Drag launch?

A standard FWD drivetrain won't work without building a new chassis and effectively building a MidLana within the Europa envelope. 

Sure it can be done, but it still won't win in the drags, the wheelbase is too short and getting enough power in it would make meeting the safety requirements nearly impossible, let alone limiting the drivers you can actually use in the cars due to their size.

I'd love to see it done, but realistically I don't see it happening.

Europa is the breadvan looking thing, right?  There is one in process here, just about to start the body install, that is Renesis/Subaru transaxle with narrowed RX8 suspension...Its getting pretty far along, being built by a retired engineer with lots of time and spare cash.

Trackmouse said:

Dude, all this crap listed and the only A) REAL and B) obtainable cars listed have been the x1/9  and 914. 

Let me introduce you to the aw11 mr2. Cheap, plentiful. Relatively light. Obtainable by all. 

Wikipedia says the 3rd gen was actually lighter than the AW11. I'm actually surpised at how heavy the W20s are.

AW10

• 1,035 kg (2,282 lb) (1985 NA)
• 1,066 kg (2,350 lb) (1988 NA)
• 1,131 kg (2,493 lb) (1988 SC)

W20

• 1,260 kg (2,777 lb) (1993T GTS Hardtop)
• 1,310 kg (2,888 lb) (1991T T-top)
• 1,179 kg (2,599 lb) (1991NA)

W30

• 996 kg (2,195 lb)

In reply to Stefan :

You should go to a challenge some time.  When you see what has been made, your doubts would be a lot less.

Seriously. 

When you see a home fabricated SHOgun, and a V8 in the passenger seat of a 510, and a v8 in the middle of a VW bus, all of your "problems" can be solved.  

The0retical said:

Trackmouse said:

Dude, all this crap listed and the only A) REAL and B) obtainable cars listed have been the x1/9  and 914. 

Let me introduce you to the aw11 mr2. Cheap, plentiful. Relatively light. Obtainable by all. 

Wikipedia says the 3rd gen was actually lighter than the AW11. I'm actually surpised at how heavy the W20s are.

AW10

• 1,035 kg (2,282 lb) (1985 NA)
• 1,066 kg (2,350 lb) (1988 NA)
• 1,131 kg (2,493 lb) (1988 SC)

W20

• 1,260 kg (2,777 lb) (1993T GTS Hardtop)
• 1,310 kg (2,888 lb) (1991T T-top)
• 1,179 kg (2,599 lb) (1991NA)

W30

• 996 kg (2,195 lb)

I am not surprised the 3rd gen is the lightest, the thing did not even get a rear trunk

IT doesn’t meet the cost and availability requirements but the DeTomaso Vallelunga was less than 1600lbs and was mid engined. 

In reply to The0retical :

The aw chassis always shocked me. It’s soooo tiny, but still weighs plenty for what it is. And yeah, the w20 is a shocker too. The 5sfe isn’t heavy, neither is the 3sgte, so it must’ve been chassis weight. 

Trackmouse said:

In reply to The0retical :

The aw chassis always shocked me. It’s soooo tiny, but still weighs plenty for what it is. And yeah, the w20 is a shocker too. The 5sfe isn’t heavy, neither is the 3sgte, so it must’ve been chassis weight. 

And the x1/9 always gets the blame for being 'overweight'.

Some good answers, and mostly what I expected. The Europa intrigues me, yet most projects seem to stall on those. Why is that? are parts not as readily available as they are for an Elan? I also don't really car for the rear body shape. 

How hard is it to import a S1 Elise?

Stefan said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Stefan :

ye of little faith.  

How many modern longitudinal FWD drivetrains do you know of?

Old FWD Audi/odd-ball VW rebrands of Audi's?

Chrysler LH/Prowler? - Electronic Automatic only

Acura Legend? - Electronic Automatic only

Now of those choices, what would you use to repower a Europa?

How many would actually fit the engine bay?

How much weight would you need to add in bracing to keep the chassis from becoming a pretzel on the first Solo or Drag launch?

A standard FWD drivetrain won't work without building a new chassis and effectively building a MidLana within the Europa envelope. 

Sure it can be done, but it still won't win in the drags, the wheelbase is too short and getting enough power in it would make meeting the safety requirements nearly impossible, let alone limiting the drivers you can actually use in the cars due to their size.

I'd love to see it done, but realistically I don't see it happening.

I currently own the GRM free Europa. All this is true, but you missed the chassis/ safety issues. 

The bench racing math will always say the Europa can go fast, because it is light. But it has no floor, no pan whatsoever, and no firewall. There is nothing to attach a roll bar or cage to. Making a Europa legal to run on an NHRA track requires essentially a scratch built chassis, which eliminated the low weight advantages of the Europa. 

Can it be done?  Yes. Does it make sense for the Challenge?  No. (Well, there is 1 formula, but I'm not sharing it right now)

Europa parts are easy to get.  Pretty much every part came off of something else, and there are several specialty parts suppliers.  Elans are probably about the same, although I don't deal with them.  Projects stall for the usual reasons:  Time and money. 

Look at one in person before you judge the shape.  They are different in person than in pictures.  And unbelievably different from the driver's seat.

Side impact intrusion is not a Europa strong point

In reply to NOHOME :

No different than taking a bike into a pole. If I wanted to live forever I would stay in the house.

Another car that intrigues me is the Ginetta G12. I'm not sure how you would go about finding one and getting it here. Most likely unobtanium for mere mortals.

I suspect your best bet for a light affordable mid engine car is the 3rd gen MR2. They’re strong, cheap, and can be made fast. Stock they’re faster than a Europa I’d wager. Hopped up the sky’s the limit. $20k would get you one built to a high spec with a hard top if you want it. 

In reply to dculberson :

300 ponies is not unheard of if you build the right zz motor first. 300hp in a w30 chassis would be bonkers. 

The problem with the MR2 seems to me to be you would be better off with starting with Elise if you are spending a bunch of money on the MR2.

In reply to NOHOME :

honestly, no different than any other car of that era, except you get the added joy of 'glass splinters in your skin

In reply to NOHOME :

I had to blow it up to realize the pole is in the middle of the driver's seat. That's no good. 

Zzw30 chassis cars with real power are $10-20,000 cheaper than a comparable elise and from my experience the elise does very few things better than a well (not expensively just well) modded mr2. They are cheap to run and super reliable if you ar careful about oiling (particularly level) and delete precats. I've got two at the moment, a 1zz and a 2zz, both are turbocharged. The 1zz one makes somewhere in the 240 whp range and weighs 2050ish wet. The 2zz one is almost done and should be 350whp and. 1900lbs wet. The chassis works so well that the cars handle big(ish) power with ease. They're roomy cars for us bigger guys, I'm 6'2" 210 pounds and with the stocl seats I have plenty of room lengthwise, widthwise I feel like the door panels are intrusive, so I did doorcards which are a huge improvement. 

My spyder in e-street trim weighs 2170 with a full tank of fuel. Should be fairly easy to get them under 2100 when not playing to the rules of a specific class.