Lightweight or Horsepower?

In reply to Javelin :

I've driven a grip limited car and a power limited car back to back. Which was more fun? 80whp and wide 200tw tires every time. Wanna go WOT through a turn? Grab a little too much steering angle? It somehow just works itself out and is super forgiving.

In reply to buzzboy :

As they say, it's easy to be a hero in 2nd gear.  
  But storming into a tight 90 degree turn at 150+  really separates the ribbon clerks from the racers.  
  Working up to a no lift Left right left combination  makes you feel really good.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to buzzboy :

As they say, it's easy to be a hero in 2nd gear.  
  But storming into a tight 90 degree turn at 150+  really separates the ribbon clerks from the racers.  
  Working up to a no lift Left right left combination  makes you feel really good.  

SSTTTAAAAHHHPPPP. 

Even F1 cars aren't making 90 degree turns at 150+ probably the most famous turn where they actually are around that speed is the quadruple apex in Turkey. And look at the radius of the turn to be able to achieve that. Not sure why you like to constantly make things up. 

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.turkeys-turn-8-taking-on-one-of-the-most-challenging-corners-in-f1.N4iqF6KjTuWPCfpDBJgEu.html

I have always raced relatively light weight agile sports cars.  I used to routinely beat big loud heavy cars by out braking them and out handling them (My MGA turned faster lap times than a C1 Corvette in vintage).

I vote for a light car with decent power and excellent handling and braking. For me the epitome of that would be the Lotus 26R. They weighed 1280 lbs. and put out c. 180 bhp and they beat all sorts of big engined cars on the track.  It was the successor to the Lotus Elite, which was one of the most elegant and lightest regular (i.e. non sports racing or formula car) on the tracks.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a12919143/lotus-elan-how-to-drive/

Beef up a chassis like that to take even more power and you'd have a killer combination.  My daily driver also has a 2.0 engine and puts out 375 bhp. The same engine can be made to reliably put out 500 bhp.

The street version of very light but powerful cars would be things like the Polaris Slingshot and the Ariel Atom - haul out your cheque book and write one for $75K and you get the Atom 4 - 1311 lbs., 320 bhp (which can be close to doubled with added risk and money).

z31maniac said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to buzzboy :

As they say, it's easy to be a hero in 2nd gear.  
  But storming into a tight 90 degree turn at 150+  really separates the ribbon clerks from the racers.  
  Working up to a no lift Left right left combination  makes you feel really good.  

SSTTTAAAAHHHPPPP. 

Even F1 cars aren't making 90 degree turns at 150+ probably the most famous turn where they actually are around that speed is the quadruple apex in Turkey. And look at the radius of the turn to be able to achieve that. Not sure why you like to constantly make things up. 

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.turkeys-turn-8-taking-on-one-of-the-most-challenging-corners-in-f1.N4iqF6KjTuWPCfpDBJgEu.html

Mmmmm pretty sure they're doing 150mph plus 90 degree corners at this little known track in Speedway, Indiana. LOL

(it was to good to resist)

Javelin said:

 

Given all else, I want grip.

Those of racing vintage car like them for the lack of grip (relative to newer cars); the 4 wheel drifty goodness is just so much fun...............also the fact that the corner speeds are lower makes it easy to achieve.

On a race track I don't really have a preference.  I've driven heavy high horsepower cars that I've really enjoyed and light low horsepower cars that I enjoyed.   My favorite is light high HP cars but that's not the topic of this thread. 

What I really want is predictability or drivability.  I've driven a couple of high HP cars with terrible engine and transmission calibrations and they weren't really fun.  Not knowing for sure how much power I was going to get when I squeezed the throttle made them sketchy to drive. I've also driven a lightweight car that had a really weird alignment that made it really hard to get pointed in the right direct during transitions.  That wasn't fun either.

I found my 640HP 3,400 lb Camaro as much fun to drive as my 120HP 1,200 lb Formula Ford.

On the road I want power.  Preferably from a V8 with a nice muted rumble.  I also want comfortable seats, a good stereo and HVAC.

I've driven both and it all depends what the point is. Autocross: weight is all important, as is skill. Short twisty tracks: light weight matters more. Big open tracks - power matters more.

My old Datsun 1200 (1700lbs and 120hp) was great fun to drive "flat out" on big tracks, slightly drifting around turns, but fast (lap times) it was not. What it made up in the turns was lost on the straights. For autocross though, it did much better. Midlana (1800lbs and 500hp) on the other hand - if I'm honest - scared me. Not just because it could always accelerate hard at any speed, but I'd dumped so much $$$$ into it that my fun on the track was offset by the fear of breaking it. With the Datsun, the understanding was always that if I balled it up, I could walk away and not feel too bad, and build another.

APEowner said:

....On the road I want power.  Preferably from a V8 with a nice muted rumble.  I also want comfortable seats, a good stereo and HVAC.

That's where I ended up, with a 2015 Jag F-Type R. Something that I don't mind sitting in heavy traffic with, yet also provides sufficient fun when the road opens up.

z31maniac said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to buzzboy :

As they say, it's easy to be a hero in 2nd gear.  
  But storming into a tight 90 degree turn at 150+  really separates the ribbon clerks from the racers.  
  Working up to a no lift Left right left combination  makes you feel really good.  

SSTTTAAAAHHHPPPP. 

Even F1 cars aren't making 90 degree turns at 150+ probably the most famous turn where they actually are around that speed is the quadruple apex in Turkey. And look at the radius of the turn to be able to achieve that. Not sure why you like to constantly make things up. 

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.turkeys-turn-8-taking-on-one-of-the-most-challenging-corners-in-f1.N4iqF6KjTuWPCfpDBJgEu.html

You really need to either improve your reading comprehension or leave your biases out.  
   Entering a corner at 150+ does not mean I am cornering at 150.   The cool thing is at Elkhart Lake they have a radar gun pointed down the track showing corner entering  speed for turn 5  

            While I haven't driven the  Indy  500 those guys are cornering st 200+.  And same with NASCAR.  
   No that did not say that I have driven in NASCAR or the INDY  500,   just saying that those guys do.  
        

wspohn said:

I have always raced relatively light weight agile sports cars.  I used to routinely beat big loud heavy cars by out braking them and out handling them (My MGA turned faster lap times than a C1 Corvette in vintage).

I vote for a light car with decent power and excellent handling and braking. For me the epitome of that would be the Lotus 26R. They weighed 1280 lbs. and put out c. 180 bhp and they beat all sorts of big engined cars on the track.  It was the successor to the Lotus Elite, which was one of the most elegant and lightest regular (i.e. non sports racing or formula car) on the tracks.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a12919143/lotus-elan-how-to-drive/

Beef up a chassis like that to take even more power and you'd have a killer combination.  My daily driver also has a 2.0 engine and puts out 375 bhp. The same engine can be made to reliably put out 500 bhp.

The street version of very light but powerful cars would be things like the Polaris Slingshot and the Ariel Atom - haul out your cheque book and write one for $75K and you get the Atom 4 - 1311 lbs., 320 bhp (which can be close to doubled with added risk and money).

 

 

Maybe it's my constant over reaching that has me prefer to drive the big thunderboomers     I know just how fast some of the small light weight racers are.    A lotus 23 B. Or Chevron    
  None of which I'll ever be able to buy.   And if I did racing it?    I couldn't risk that much.   
     I bought my Black Jack  Spl  for $300 and the Jaguar XJS V 12. For $500   My XKE BITSA  is going to be just scraps I have laying around  and maybe another grand.  
             It's so affordable to find a father or grandfathers personal reward  car like a  450 Mercedes Benz. Or Jaguar XJS , BMW, etc   for $500 and  put it on the track for a few grand more. 
     Tom 1200 has another approach I can respect. Keep an old race car long after it's competition days are over. Vintage race the snot out of it.  Enjoying every single moment you can!!  

kb58 said:

With the Datsun, the understanding was always that if I balled it up, I could walk away and not feel too bad, and build another.

This is the best summation of my 38 years of ownership and 34 years of racing a Datsun 1200. 

frenchyd said:

     Tom 1200 has another approach I can respect. Keep an old race car long after it's competition days are over. Vintage race the snot out of it.  Enjoying every single moment you can!!  

It's such stupid fun to drive you can't help but have fun...............like blasting around a frozen lake bed in an old beater.  

kb58 said:

APEowner said:

....On the road I want power.  Preferably from a V8 with a nice muted rumble.  I also want comfortable seats, a good stereo and HVAC.

That's where I ended up, with a 2015 Jag F-Type R. Something that I don't mind sitting in heavy traffic with, yet also provides sufficient fun when the road opens up.

Nice!

kb58 said:

APEowner said:

....On the road I want power.  Preferably from a V8 with a nice muted rumble.  I also want comfortable seats, a good stereo and HVAC.

That's where I ended up, with a 2015 Jag F-Type R. Something that I don't mind sitting in heavy traffic with, yet also provides sufficient fun when the road opens up.

May I assume that you do your own work on the car?   Dealerships that sell low volume cars still must generate profits or why bother?   
       Plus they need turn over.   So the cars  quickly depreciate because of extremely high maintenance costs. Yet if you get into them they tend to be extremely well built.  Forgings where higher volume manufactures use castings, better hardware, etc.    the cosmetics don't hold up that well and as they deteriorate  people who bought them for ego reasons are motivated to sell them cheaply.   
     I'll be crushed if you tell me I'm full of it and an oil change is only $50. 
 

Tom1200 said:

z31maniac said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to buzzboy :

As they say, it's easy to be a hero in 2nd gear.  
  But storming into a tight 90 degree turn at 150+  really separates the ribbon clerks from the racers.  
  Working up to a no lift Left right left combination  makes you feel really good.  

SSTTTAAAAHHHPPPP. 

Even F1 cars aren't making 90 degree turns at 150+ probably the most famous turn where they actually are around that speed is the quadruple apex in Turkey. And look at the radius of the turn to be able to achieve that. Not sure why you like to constantly make things up. 

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.turkeys-turn-8-taking-on-one-of-the-most-challenging-corners-in-f1.N4iqF6KjTuWPCfpDBJgEu.html

Mmmmm pretty sure they're doing 150mph plus 90 degree corners at this little known track in Speedway, Indiana. LOL

(it was to good to resist)

Hence why I mentioned the radius of the turn, I guess I should have also mentioned the width of the track as well. You can have a 90 degree turn but if the track is sufficiently wide, the proper line isn't actually like taking a 90 degree turn. 

frenchyd said:

z31maniac said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to buzzboy :

As they say, it's easy to be a hero in 2nd gear.  
  But storming into a tight 90 degree turn at 150+  really separates the ribbon clerks from the racers.  
  Working up to a no lift Left right left combination  makes you feel really good.  

SSTTTAAAAHHHPPPP. 

Even F1 cars aren't making 90 degree turns at 150+ probably the most famous turn where they actually are around that speed is the quadruple apex in Turkey. And look at the radius of the turn to be able to achieve that. Not sure why you like to constantly make things up. 

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.turkeys-turn-8-taking-on-one-of-the-most-challenging-corners-in-f1.N4iqF6KjTuWPCfpDBJgEu.html

You really need to either improve your reading comprehension or leave your biases out.  
   Entering a corner at 150+ does not mean I am cornering at 150.   The cool thing is at Elkhart Lake they have a radar gun pointed down the track showing corner entering  speed for turn 5  

            While I haven't driven the  Indy  500 those guys are cornering st 200+.  And same with NASCAR.  
   No that did not say that I have driven in NASCAR or the INDY  500,   just saying that those guys do.  
        

EDIT: No point.