LMS: Class C RVs

We are strongly considering a small (21-24') Class C RV.  

We have 2 kids and want to do that silly drive around seeing parks and camping out in American thing.  

We are looking for something that is not going to be a substantial project so probably in the 20-30k range to get something <10 years old.

So now questions.

Chassis what's the one to have for reliability? Looks like it's Mostly Ford 350/450 vans (5.4L in the 350/V10 in the 450, 5 speed auto) or Chevy with the 6.0L/4 speed.   Chevy's only have 16k GCWR for 3500lbs towing, Ford's are 17500 for 5000lb

There are Dodge/Mercedes diesels as well.  Usually more expensive and the towing is 4000lbs.  Also the layout is usually more of a couple's camper vs a family.  But they are out there.  Is this a maintenance nightmare?

Who has any experience with RVs to know who makes the best "home" part of the motor home?  Looks like all of the ones we would be looking at use some kind of fiberglass sides.  What should we look out for?

We don't like the layouts with the couch/dinette/overcab but like the corner bed/dinette/overcab as it seems better for a family of 4.  Is there something we are missing? What layouts work for your families?

We've done pop-up and tent camping and were looking at a hybrid or small trailer to get a bathroom but without purchasing a larger Tow Vehicle it seems the trailer options don't really work.  As a bonus I would be able to use it for towing the MG to trackdays and have a great spot to stay at the track which a trailer alone would not offer.  

Gas mileage seems that all of them get 9ish but is the V10 a gas hog?  Diesels are better but I'm not sure we would make up the price difference.

I've got a good background for checking condition of what we buy so I'm mostly looking for feedback on features and gotchas on overall quality then specific check for leaks/evidence of leaks/poorly repaired leaks type things.

Thanks!

Whew where to start....

I had a winnie, E Series, v10. 8mpg if you stayed at 60 or less. Dramatically less over 60. Good news was a 50 gallon tank (optional).

Water leaks is what kills fiberglass RV's. They have a luan skin behind the fiberglass that will rot when (not if) water gets in. Delamination (ripples, bugles etc) are what you really need ot look for. Carefully look down the sides in the sun.

Be careful of tow ratings, many of the RV's have extended frames past the back edge of the factory frame. MAny are SKETCH, and really just to support the "house" structure. Also the GVWR is going to be maxed on many of them once you put stuff, water and people in them. RV mfgs have been known to be a bit light on their published weughts.

You might think about renting a couple diffrerent floor plans to try out! I didn't mind the dinette, but I want permanant beds, setting them up all the time sucks IMO. 

EDIT: they are all going to be low mileage, and age is going to be the biggest factor. As to GM/Ford/Merc etc, I dont really know what ages best. Id look at who messes with the facotry wiring and systems the least.

I've been out of the new/gently used RV market for a while, but do some research.

It used to be that nearly all RVs were constructed with 2x2 wood studs with a luan panel inside and aluminum or fiberglass outside.  Once it leaked, it was a bugger to fix rot.  Fortunately nowadays there are several options out there with aluminum studs and laminated foam insulation.  The walls are kinda one big stressed-skin.  Very rigid and if you have a leak the most you would have to do is replace a bit of interior paneling.

Back in the day, the hot ticket was a Holiday Rambler; aluminum studs, smooth aluminum skin, and a 2-piece aluminum roof.  No maintenance like a rubber roof, rarely leaks, super nice interior.  But, you have to go back to the mid-90s to find one before Monaco bought them and it all went downhill.

The late 90s - mid 2000s were a pretty dark time for RVs.  The market was flooded with super cheap junk that was slapped together for the lightest possible combination.  That led to luan cabinetry, carpet that lasted about 2 seasons, and slide rooms that leaked and only worked a few times before the gearbox exploded or it came off the track.  Many of them also tried to cram as much faux luxury into it as possible which (in my opinion) has no place in an RV.  I don't mind luxury things, but I ripped up the carpet in my 92 Holiday Rambler and replaced it with linoleum.  Keep a broom around and cleaning up after a rainy day of tracking in dirt and grass becomes super simple.  RVs are so "close" to the outdoors that I prefer to lean toward RVs that have durable fabrics, hard floors, and functional space.  YMMV.

Unless you really need it for space, skip the slide room unless you really check it out.  Most motorhomes have the "good" kind that just go straight out.  Many TTs and 5ers have "flush floor" slide rooms where the box goes out and down.  Complex mechanisms and they are more prone to leak, let in vermin, and mechanically fail.  If you have one that just goes straight out and straight in, it's a better bet.  Do your homework, though.  The majority of slide rooms are just stoopid.  My friends have a lovely double-slide 5th wheel.  With the slide rooms in, you can't access the fridge OR the bathroom.  Really kills the idea of stopping by the road for lunch or a pee break.  If I buy a slide room, I will ONLY buy it if the RV retains full function of everything with the slide(s) retracted.  Also avoid slides with plumbing or appliances in the slide room.  That means gas lines, drains, electrical, water, etc have to have motion and flex.

My newest 5er has two slides.  It's a rear kitchen, so the big slide in the back has the couch and dining table.  It does have electrical outlets in the slide, but if they fail the only thing I can't do is use the outlet until I fix it.  If your fridge is in the slide and you lose electric, you will be throwing away food. The other slide is in the front bedroom, and they were even thoughtful enough to not put things like drawers or cabinets where the bed would block them when retracted.  Nice touch.  Full function with the slides in or out.

I also strongly suggest against an automatic awning.  To properly function, an awning must have either a significant slope, or one side lower than the other.  Otherwise it will belly with water and either rip itself off, or rip off the whole wall of your RV.  Automatic awnings often have a kinda complex set of sensors that keep tabs on how much weight is in the awning as it fills with water and retracts itself to dump the water... all over your patio.  Then you also have the problem of a failure point or loss of power where the awning doesn't retract to dump water, and then see the "rip the wall off your RV" part above.  My manual awning takes 30 seconds to set up, and I simply put the rear support two holes lower than the front.  It stays up all summer and drains itself nicely.

In the class C world, at least the one on Planet Earth ( which leaves out the semi-truck chassis-based Dynomax), Lazy Daze are well regarded. So is Big Foot. 

5.4 is going to suck balls. The v10 is surprisingly good. I recently drove a 23' v10 rv from TX to CA and back and did a lot better than 8mpg. That particular RV will do 13+ if you aren't pushing the speed past 65. 

For me personally, I'd pick mostly on layout and size of the bathroom.  All the mechanical variance between brands and models is going to bother you a lot less often than a E36 M3ty layout or driving around a huge expensive E36 M3-mpg RV that you still feel the need to get out of to use the restroom/shower. 

RENT!!! Owning an RV is always more expensive than one thinks, and often ends badly.  There are some excellent sites now that offer a rental service by connecting owners with customers.  Not always cheap but cheaper than buying.  And this is without a doubt the best way to find out if the family really likes this and what type of RV works for you.

porschenut said:

RENT!!! Owning an RV is always more expensive than one thinks, and often ends badly.  There are some excellent sites now that offer a rental service by connecting owners with customers.  Not always cheap but cheaper than buying.  And this is without a doubt the best way to find out if the family really likes this and what type of RV works for you.

Came here to say exactly this.

When you look at purchase, storage, maintenance, tax, title, license, plus depreciation, you can rent a heck of a lot of nights in an RV.  Local place by me rents 1-2 year old ones for $125 a night.  Still stupid money for a box on wheels but way better than a purchase. 

Only RVs worth buying outright are Airstream pull-behinds, they keep their resale like crazy.  And even still you would have to use it a ton to justify the $80k they cost.  

Thanks everyone for the feedback so far.  We are looking for a no slide unit.  I know the best way to keep something from leaking is to not cut a hole in it and the unusable layouts when folded drive us nuts.  

I'm trying to figure out the cost aspects.  Storage is a $0 affair as it can stay at our house and be stored securely, insurance quotes are very reasonable, taxes are one time up front and I can do all the maintenance myself on both the home and motor parts.  It looks like accounting for depreciation and reasonable estimates for ongoing maintenance we would come out ahead vs renting for our usage.  I've heard people say they cost similar to boats though so I'm not sure.  

Please keep the thoughts coming.

nocones said:

It looks like accounting for depreciation and reasonable estimates for ongoing maintenance we would come out ahead vs renting for our usage.  I've heard people say they cost similar to boats though so I'm not sure.  

As for the first sentence here, I suggest a new accountant.

As for the second sentence, you must like lighting $100 bills on fire.  The cost is the same, also the usage is the same.  You buy it thinking how much fun it will be and then it just sits there, year after year, costing you money.  Hell, I’m retired and my boat gets used a handful of times a year.  The last boat I sold had only 200 hours of use in 7 years. Sitting is a bad thing.  Unless you are going to use it every month for extended periods, there is NO way that you are better off buying than renting.  It would cost me pennies to rent a boat vs what it actually costs me to have it sitting on a lift behind the house.  If you aren’t concerned at all about money, go ahead and buy.

Not suggesting renting forever.  Just for the first few weekends until the family is sure they like it in reality not just in theory.  And you know driving one and dumping the dirty tanks is worth the trip!

There are a few treads here on the plus/minus, dos/don’t of motor homes. I have owned both Class C and Class A and prefer Class A because most have a more robust chassis and generally offer more room then a Class C  in the same length. You have to be careful when picking a small Class C because they are often near the gross maximum vehicle weight empty  and it’s very easy to overload them with just the necessities for even short trips for a family.  Overloaded RV’s are dangerous for a number of reasons. If I had settled on a Class C I would not consider anything less then the Ford F-450 chassis.

I also would not consider anything more the ten years old. One of the weaknesses of Class C motor homes  is the construction of the over the cab cantilevered bed area. There is sometimes buckling in the corner which leads to roof leaks. Roof leaks as others have said are the death of a motor home. Also look very carefully for any signs of delamination of the roof or side panels which often start with leaks. Also fiberglass panels with vinyl graphics are very difficult to maintain. They require wax all the time and you can’t use a buffer because of the vinyl graphics. Full body paint is much easier. 

A 21 to 24 foot motor home might be a bit small for two adults and two kids. If the children are small they need room to play if older they need their own space. As others have said renting for a couple weekends or a weeks vacation might be a good idea to see what works best. 

I forgot to comment specifically on the space issues of a ~21-24' rv, but pirate is dead on about it being small for 4 people, even if 2 are children. The big problem is that not every class C that small is going to have the overhead bunk thing, and almost none of them are going to have a rear bed-thing-area. So there will either be not enough comfortable sleeping area, or not enough separation if that matters to you. If you get closer to 30' you will find rear bed in the majority. But, there are things that go along with getting the longer one, like the fact that it won't fit in any single parking space while the low 20 footers can be backed up to a curb until the wheels touch and actually 'fit' in a  single parking spot. I also don't think the longer ones are as suited to towing because of the distance between the rear wheels and the tow ball and low 'reserve power/brakes', and those frame extensions as mentioned are pretty scary to look at. For towing an MG it might still be fine. The lengths are deceptive descriptors since the first 6-7 feet are just a van body. I have a project 19' Clark Cortez which is basically a COE arrangement and it is just as big internally as the 23' rv i borrowed to go to CA in spite of being narrower and shorter in height as well. 

Since I have opinions on most things, here's mine.

I priced out renting a Class C for a weekend to take to a race. Pick up Friday, return Monday. Total cost including all fees, extra mileage and taxes was just under $2k for 4 days. That's almost half what I paid for mine. I will be using mine every time I go to the track, 4-5 weekends a year, as well as several family trips throughout the year. Renting makes no sense to me unless you aren't going to use it. 

In your price range, I'd be looking at a newer 25'-30' unit and I would consider a Class A. The Tiffin I just bought has a aluminum frame. The walls are a laminated sandwich of fiberglass and foam. I've been pretty impressed with the construction overall. The Ford v10 is supposed to be bullet proof as is their transmission. 

Another thing to look for is a roof that wraps down over the side walls. They are less prone to leakage. 

This is less likely to leak and destroy the roof and walls. The roofing is lapped over the top of the walls and the seam is on the side instead of the top.

This seam is on the roof itself. The only thing stopping water is a caulk joint that flexes every time you drive the thing. I've read all kinds of horror stories.

Many of the Class C motorhomes are apparently right at the edge of their GVWR. A lot of the trailers are as well. When I was shopping, many units only had enough capacity for 2000# +- of gear and water before being maxed out. The Class A I just bought has 5000# of capacity left as well as another 8000# of towing capacity. There should be a builders sheet showing net weight, GVWR and GCWR. Mine is in a closet, glued to the wall. 

If you buy used, plan on a set of tires. The ones on mine weren't aged out, but I've still blown out two of them. There is no way to tell how they were treated before you bought it. Just buy tires. When they blow, they can destroy some expensive parts. Doing some research, several people recommend replacing the fronts every 2 years. Blowing a front is hella exciting, I don't recommend it. Then the old fronts go to the right rear for 2 years. The passenger side rear tires are more prone to damage from curbs and carry more load due to road crown. Then they are move to the left rear for 2 years before being cycled off the RV. This is going to be my plan. 

Forget the diesel Sprinters, this one is used and they are asking $75K. You don't want one in your price range.  Other types of diesel also seem to be out of the price range. 

Or they are this $300,000 beast

I can buy $70k in gas and still not equal the cost of a Sprinter. 

https://camperreport.com/rv-depreciation-everything-possibly-want-know/

You want something 6 or 10 years old to hit the sweet spots of depreciation.

I have a V10 Ford Tow Pig and its fine, it just revs out more also 5star tuning makes a tune and a y pipe that makes a big difference on the gear hunting, also the engines easily adapt to putting a massive ford F-350 trans cooler on them which helps keep them going.

Biggest issue with towing is going to be if the frame is supported enough and the overall GVWR

Water intrusion/damage is going to be the biggest thing to look for you want something that was used regularly because the ones that sat were the ones that got a leak no one saw for weeks etc

I will say trailers are WAY cheaper. RVs are more than the cost of a truck+trailer 30k is about where I think most of the ones you would be considering would land for a ten year old unit and you could purchase a brand new 30ft trailer for less than 25, plus you can disconnect the trailer and use the tow vehicle to get around. The only reason I would prefer a motorhome vs a trailer is so I can tow race car AND have my posh accommodations. my v10 excursion 4x4 gets the aforementioned 8mpg but is big, comfy and tows 11-12k?

After living through the nightmare that is the OM642 Bluetec diesel, I wouldn't wish that overengineered hunk of german E36 M3 on anyone.  I've heard that the version that they put in the Sprinter is "different" and maybe I'm just gun-shy now, but I would run as fast as you can away from those.  That said, the Ford V-10 and the 8.1 from Chevy have good reputations for this sort of duty.

I bought in pretty cheap, but when I was doing the math the only way just renting worked out financially for me would have been to drive to the place that I wanted to camp and rent there or rent a travel trailer.  With a family of 5 plus two (now three) dogs, a travel trailer would leave us pretty cramped in the tow vehicle unless we went with a fifth wheel -- every jurisdiction that I looked at made it illegal to ride in a bumper-pull trailer, but was okay with passengers in a fifth wheel.   The per-mile charges on motorhomes plus the regular rental cost and cleaning fees and all that made it pretty expensive to really go anywhere.  On top of that, I lose the ability to decide on a Friday afternoon to pack up the fam and head out.  Your mileage will certainly vary -- I was looking to buy in at under 10k, so it's not really fair to compare that cost against renting a newer 50amp coach with slides and electric awnings and all that jazz.

The first thing you should be shopping on is condition and from there you should narrow it down by floorplan.  There's not a ton of variation, but it's nearly impossible to really change the basic layout.  For us, the number one floorplan item was having a queen bed in the rear bedroom as opposed to two twins.  For you it might be type and number of slides.  Some people really like having a second entrance to the bathroom from the master and some prefer having a peninsula in the galley.  There are coaches with a table and chairs and others that have a booth setup for eating.  Many coaches -- especially older units -- do not have provisions for seatbelts in the dinette so if you have visions of the kids sitting around playing games or eating while you're going down the road, plan accordingly.  My coach lacks those belts but my next one will definitely have them.

For condition the number one thing is water intrusion and the biggest offender there is the roof.  EDPM rubber roofs are cheap but prone to tree branch damage and UV degradation.  I believe that those need to have regularly scheduled roof replacements, but check me on that.  Winnebago and their badge-engineered Itasca models use a one-piece fiberglass roof that attaches to the sides via a j-channel.  The roof itself is maintenance-free and once you lay down some Eternabond tape over the j-channel you'll never need to worry about those either.  Water can also get in around rooftop A/C units, the holding tank vent, the fridge vent, TV antenna, clearance lights, luggage rack and ladder stanchions, and the roof vents.  Seal those up with Eternabond and DAP Clear sealant, but never silicone.  There are also opportunities for water to get into the sides themselves from the windows, vents, and other trim, so check those spots as well.  In theory, delamination can be repaired without replacing sections of wall using an injection of epoxy.  I actually have a small delam spot that I plan to try that method on - my stovetop vent fan outlet appears to have leaked at some point.  

When you're setting up for towing keep two things in mind:  RV manufacturers are very cheap and doing things properly is usually expensive.  A lot of coaches are at or over their GVWR right out of the factory.  They will also typically have frame extensions added to the original frame built by someone who knows how to build trucks.  The RV people don't really know about building trucks so most of the frame extensions that I've seen are (poorly) butt-welded (with spot welds instead of a solid bead!) to the manufacturer's frame rails.  The trailer hitch works like a fulcrum and the trailer itself will become a lever that will start to work on that weld.  Once the weld goes, the back cap of the RV will begin separating from the rest of the coach and it's bad times.  I actually added some large bits of C-channel to my frame extensions to strengthen them up and my extensions are pretty short.  I believe the class C frames tend to be a bit shorter than the class A ones which means they tend to have more extension for the same overall vehicle length.

An A is going to have more living space for the overall length since the first few feet of the van cutaway chassis is basically useless.  The upside, though, is that you do get the over-cab bunk so for two kids you would be all set with that bunk and a jack knife sofa.  No need to constantly tear down and put up the dinette for sleeping.  You really should figure out how much space you need as a family, though.  My first RV experience was renting a trailer to take down to the Rolex with my dad.  I can't remember how long it was, but I remember that when we picked it up I thought it was just way too big for the two of us and by the time we were packing up to head home it seemed like the trailer had shrunk to the size of a can of beans.  Smaller units will also have smaller tanks so if you plan to boondock or dry-camp at all, be aware that you might run out both input and output.  Class Cs also tend to have limited basement storage space which makes the inside even smaller.

93gsxturbo said:

porschenut said:

RENT!!! Owning an RV is always more expensive than one thinks, and often ends badly.  There are some excellent sites now that offer a rental service by connecting owners with customers.  Not always cheap but cheaper than buying.  And this is without a doubt the best way to find out if the family really likes this and what type of RV works for you.

Came here to say exactly this.

When you look at purchase, storage, maintenance, tax, title, license, plus depreciation, you can rent a heck of a lot of nights in an RV.  Local place by me rents 1-2 year old ones for $125 a night.  Still stupid money for a box on wheels but way better than a purchase. 

Only RVs worth buying outright are Airstream pull-behinds, they keep their resale like crazy.  And even still you would have to use it a ton to justify the $80k they cost.  

I'll politely disagree.  People say the same thing about boats, but it just doesn't really hold water if you're a DIY type person.  I have owned the same RV for 16 years, it was already 11 years old when I bought it, it gets used heavily for 3 months a year, sits outside uncovered 365 days a year, and I've spent maybe $100 on it in repairs.  There was a leak where the awning lower support arm meets the skin and it rotted a little section of the floor, so I ripped out the carpet, fixed the rotted spot, and put linoleum tiles down.  The temp sensor on my water heater died and that was about $17 and two minutes to replace.  The wall thermostat needed to be replaced after the battery leaked, so I installed a cheap honeywell.  Two times I did some preventative roof sealing.  The butyl tape on the seams was getting old so I hit it all with a coat of liquid rubber.

Honestly, though, I have owned 6 RVs and only one was trouble.  Pretty simple house-boxes.  Where you get into trouble is when you go fancy with tons of options; slide rooms, etc.

My whole family is full of RVers.  Pick a good brand, maintain it well, and it will treat you well.

In reply to wae :

Re: the comment about tanks - if boon-docking is a concern, 5th wheels and especially toy-haulers seem to have the largest tanks, save some of the higher-end, bus-based Class A models. 

The funny thing about RV's... there are dozens of different types and sizes at all sorts of prices... and none are perfect for everyone - which is why they still make so many.

I agree for the most part with Curtis, I am dealing with a couple issues with my current camper but they are due to poorly done previous repairs. and a few aging plastic parts that seem to have gotten brittle. The real "danger" to maintaining an RV is having it not be inspected/paid attention to for a long time which lets a minor problem get worse.

I have an OM642 that is still running! It has 90k on it but has already had the oil leak in the top of the motor and a rear main seal replaced

We wrote off class A because you lose the front bunk in most cases (there are As that have it but they are rare) and the fact the gasser A's and C's actually usually have similar GVW ratings and same powerplants. Also there are very few A's in the 24-28 range when I was looking

I will say my current camper we have had for almost 2 years was bought used for 5k and we used it for 2 adults and 2 kids, my observations from that. We really need a separate sleeping area from the kids (5 and 8) because we want them to go to bed before we go to bed. We really need more pass through outside storage AND more inside storage. It would be really nice to have a seating area that is NOT the dinette. Size of your grey water in particular and black water tanks are going to be one of our most annoying things to manage because if you want to road trip/camp in campgrounds without the sewer hookup (most state campgrounds have water and power available but only dump stations) it becomes a annoying chore managing water use to prevent filling those tanks and you feel like you are always dumping it and its never truly empty.

Also Nocones FWIW my trailer is a Hybrid and I am way over the having to set up the bunk ends (its also noisy since you only have tent between you and neighbors)

We originally bought it to tow with our minivan, which actually towed it fine except for trans temps. If we had a mid size SUV it would maybe been better. I just didn't trust it on long trips but the van had no real issue pulling or stopping it

In reply to Ian F :

Really?  I never did much fifth wheel research so I didn't realize that!  My old A has a hundred gallons of fresh, 60-some-odd of grey, and 50ish of black.

Wow thanks everyone for so much information.  We've found a couple we are looking at.  We currently have a pop-up so space wise we understand what we are getting into.  

I hadn't thought about the wrap down roof.  The one we are looking at has that as well as a wrap around fiberglass front piece.  

The only issue is these things are kinda hard to find.  Lots in Michigan/Wisconsin not so many nearby.  The slightly larger 26-28' ones are more prevalent but we don't really want one that large.  That extra 5' is a bunch.

In reply to wae :

It definitely varies a lot by model.  Toy haulers seem to have the most - I suppose they expect folks to get dirty playing with their toys. And the classic toy hauler ad is an overhead shot out in the middle of nowhere. And unlike regular travel trailers, toy haulers and 5th wheels are more likely to have a generator. 

Also OMG why are there so many RV SCAM sales on Craigslist??

nocones said:

Also OMG why are there so many RV SCAM sales on Craigslist??

Because geezers buy RVs.  My dad knows we are kinda sorta looking for a 23 foot Airstream and he sends me all the scams.