N Sperlo wrote:mguar wrote: Fords get better fuel mileage with automatics than sticks. People can't shift as fast as automatics can. Nor are they likely to outsmart automatics..the automatic doesn't know its raining and the car in front of me on the highway is spinning out. I'd much rather downshift than lock the wheels up.
You don't have ABS? Me neither...
Datsun310Guy wrote: Wife aggravated ( although she can drive stick). Mother-in-law......
That makes sense. For a moment I thought you meant just random people at work or something. 
N Sperlo wrote:mguar wrote: Fords get better fuel mileage with automatics than sticks. People can't shift as fast as automatics can. Nor are they likely to outsmart automatics..the automatic doesn't know its raining and the car in front of me on the highway is spinning out. I'd much rather downshift than lock the wheels up.
It's worse than that, automatics are retarded. They don't take gravity into account, so not only do they not know a hill is coming up because they don't have eyes, but they don't know when you're on a hill and tend to lug the engine low. On downhills they needlessly rev the engine high. And worst of all, for unexplainable reasons they usually move off in 2nd.
bravenrace wrote: In reply to yamaha: More gears give you more torque multiplication. If more gears allows the engine to stay in it's optimum operating range, then you more effectively make use of the torque the engine makes.
Doesn't explain why two cars with similar engines, weight, layout, etc run 2 completely different times in the 1/4......
The one that had 21hp/10tq more, vct, and the 6sp auto ran 16.20's stock(consistantly with flawless launch), and the other that had less power and torque with the 4sp auto ran 15.80's stock(consistantly with a mediocre launch)
Cars referenced, 99 duratec sable vs 07 duratec fusion.....
Fusion weight 3280/221hp = 14.84 lbs per hp Sable LS weight 3310/200hp = 16.55 lbs per hp
On paper, this would be easy.....in real life, paperwork bench racing would have lost.
But oh, what the hell do I know, I just raced both numerous times and won bracket trophies with each.
I eventually tuned the sable and pulled 200lbs of weight out and ended up in the 15.6 range.....
bravenrace wrote: You don't have ABS? Me neither...
<------was going to say I don't either, but the DD '91 has it, granted 13" cobra brakes get it reigned down before abs computer can even figure out what is going on.....
N Sperlo wrote: the automatic doesn't know its raining and the car in front of me on the highway is spinning out. I'd much rather downshift than lock the wheels up.
So engine braking with your manual won't lock the wheels up, but using your brake pedal will?
In reply to ProDarwin:
Me thinks the tires have a certain amount of grip, and don't really care where the load is coming from.
Maybe less brake pressure would help.
bravenrace wrote: In reply to ProDarwin: Me thinks the tires have a certain amount of grip, and don't really care where the load is coming from. Maybe less brake pressure would help.
Exactly, although 4 tires have more grip than the engine braking, unless you have AWD and limited slips in all 3 diffs. Regardless, not really a transmission issue.
In reply to ProDarwin:
I understand what he's saying. It's easier to make a carefully selected downshift when needed. But the perception and reality aren't always the same.
We're doomed the day the stick stops being made.
I wonder how many calories are burned by using a manual in day to day life......that might be a cure for obesity.
Personally, I just think most "Murkans" are generally lazy and went with whatever was easiest.
If you ever work at a trans shop you will discover the whole truth of auto vs manual..
Its kinda funny when my friends ask me about used cars that have auto trans and i tell them it's a complete, absolute crapshoot. Could be $2k tomorrow. Could be $2k again in 13 months. Could last years. Who effing knows. All you can do is look at the fluid and ask the PO to lie to you about service history and lie about the PPOs service history etc etc.
I mean, if you're a mechanic or trans builder really familiar with transmissions you can do a LITTLE better than that with a LOT of effort, but for joe blow buying a used car the auto trans is the main variable that can eat his lunch and there's not really much you can do about it except buy a manual.
Vigo wrote: If you ever work at a trans shop you will discover the whole truth of auto vs manual.. Its kinda funny when my friends ask me about used cars that have auto trans and i tell them it's a complete, absolute crapshoot. Could be $2k tomorrow. Could be $2k again in 13 months. Could last years. Who effing knows. All you can do is look at the fluid and ask the PO to lie to you about service history and lie about the PPOs service history etc etc. I mean, if you're a mechanic or trans builder really familiar with transmissions you can do a LITTLE better than that with a LOT of effort, but for joe blow buying a used car the auto trans is the main variable that can eat his lunch and there's not really much you can do about it except buy a manual.
Wow, seriously? Of all the cars I've owned only two have ever been manual. Of all the automatics, I've had exactly, zero, transmission problems. Never had to spend a dime other than fluid and filter changes. I will have to put a clutch in the BMW eventually and you can bet it will cost more than changing the fluid in an auto. In my experience auto's have been nothing but reliable. Even in the Dodge truck I had.
Just more of my $0.02 worth:
of the 2 dozen or so vehicles I've owned, the majority (like 55%?) were manual transmissioned. I had no idea what "riding the clutch" meant, until I destroyed the clutch in a J2000. Actually, I ruined the clutch in an Audi Fox, too, but didn't know why. The VW dealer I took my Fox to to get it fixed had a "boatload" of VW products with blown clutches, and since I rode the clutch on the Audi like the one in the J2000, I'm assuming that is what killed it. Biggest bill on transmission repairs? $800 on a '94 Ford Ranger that was just "DOGGED" big time. I never had a repair bill on a car with an automatic transmission. HOWEVER, I haven't owned a car with an automatic that was built AFTER 1995 or that had over 100,000 on the transmission. For some reason, automatics built after 1995 SEEM(?) to be more "sensitive" about their owners failling to do periodic / preventive (?) servicing...like fluid changes, which is very ironic since that is when "lifetime" fluids first showed up.
My father, who only drives automatics in his cars (his last truck had a manual) has had to replace the transmissions in 2 different Tauruses, the one when the car had only 65,000 miles on it.
Oh, and I have had several cars (after I stopped riding the clutch pedal) where the clutch lasted well past 100,000 miles. 2 different Honda products that past 130,000 miles on the original clutches.
Its true that old transmissions arent as 'sensitive'. They can deal with every single clearance being out of whack because that's pretty much the way they came out of the factory..
Personally, ive had good experiences with my own automatic transmissions, but i HAVE had transmissions with issues including one that i burned up 4th gear on, and the only reason that didnt eat my lunch and piss me the hell off is because i happened to be a mechanic, and eventually a trans builder, so i mostly swapped them out with known good trannies from cheap parts cars and eventually rebuilt a few of my own rather than paying out ~$2k every single time.
Ohhhhh THAT'S how a tight manual works?!?!
nicksta43 wrote:Vigo wrote: If you ever work at a trans shop you will discover the whole truth of auto vs manual.. Its kinda funny when my friends ask me about used cars that have auto trans and i tell them it's a complete, absolute crapshoot. Could be $2k tomorrow. Could be $2k again in 13 months. Could last years. Who effing knows. All you can do is look at the fluid and ask the PO to lie to you about service history and lie about the PPOs service history etc etc. I mean, if you're a mechanic or trans builder really familiar with transmissions you can do a LITTLE better than that with a LOT of effort, but for joe blow buying a used car the auto trans is the main variable that can eat his lunch and there's not really much you can do about it except buy a manual.Wow, seriously? Of all the cars I've owned only two have ever been manual. Of all the automatics, I've had exactly, zero, transmission problems. Never had to spend a dime other than fluid and filter changes. I will have to put a clutch in the BMW eventually and you can bet it will cost more than changing the fluid in an auto. In my experience auto's have been nothing but reliable. Even in the Dodge truck I had.
You are a sample size of one.
Well its nice when the fuse is UPSTREAM of all the expensive stuff. Id rather be changing a clutch than everything behind it. In an auto pretty much everything that can break can take out everything else.
Also, clutches are more diy'able than auto tranny repair because the only special tool you need is plastic and comes in your clutch box. Generally..
In reply to mguar:
I wasn't replying to you.
Most modern fwd transmissions are a crapshoot once older. Mainly due to "soft" shifts for "comfort".....those will die very quickly
And am I the only one here who has lunched a couple manual gearboxes? Stupid S10 M50 box
Ive NEVER broken a manual or even worn one out. My dd has 337k on the original box/synchros.
I have a feeling i will break one with power (not powershifting) sometime in the future, though.
Time wise it takes about the same time to R&R a manual transmission as an automatic (maybe slightly less time for an automatic since the gear shift lever isn't involved in an automatic)
That was not my experience while actually doing it for a living for 2 years. You HAVE to drain an auto to drop it unless you want a huge mess, and most of them dont have drain plugs which means dropping the pan. Then you've got cooler lines, some of which take several minutes by themselves because of access problems. Youve got several electrical connectors which can have tricky access. Heck on a lot of GMs you have to have a heat gun handy to unplug the NSS. Then you've got torque converter bolts which, depending on the trans, are a huge PITA, like an old cummins or the GMs that came with allen-head bolts that always strip and sometimes need to be air-chiseled out.
SOME 2wd auto trannies are cake. The fastest i dropped a 2wd trans on a lift was 17 minutes and i doubt thats any kind of record. But that is NOT true across the board.
Some manuals are hard too but they are generally easier and faster to get out than automatics.
Considering how durable most automatics are now days if an automatic does fail it makes sense to replace the whole thing..
On NEW used cars, thats reasonably accurate. On old used cars, thats way too broad a statement. For example, i would never rebuild an AW4 in a cherokee. I would ALWAYS just buy a used one. But i would almost ALWAYS rebuild the trans in a caravan and NEVER buy a used one. All trannies are not created equal and unless you worked around them day in day out or knew someone who did, you'd be taking a real shot in the dark buying a used transmission trying to save $1000, especially if you pay someone else for install or it takes your slow ass all day to put one in.
Parts wise a used automatic with a warranty is about the same price as a clutch, pressure plate, throw out bearing, and resurfacing the flywheel.
Obviously clutch prices vary wildly but a LOT of clutches are under $150 and resurfacing a flywheel is 20-25 where im at. On the other hand, the cheapest i ever heard of a used trans with a labor warranty was 400, and usually it was more like 700, although some were higher. Now if you're talking exchange warranty you can get one from a upullit on half price day for like $92 dollars (not counting what your time is worth to drag all your tools out there and pull it in a field). But as i said, if you do it yourself and the transmission doesnt work, you will probably be in it for $1000+ of time and aggravation when you finish taking it back to the yard and pulling the 2nd one yourself and putting it in yourself. And when it breaks in 6 months? If you pay someone else to r&r you'll be in it for $1000 just in labor by the time they put the 2nd one in. Or you skip the middleman and buy a $700 dollar one with a labor warranty, have a shop do it to GET the labor warranty, they mark up the used trans, and you're in it for $1200 but you're actually MOSTLY covered, for a while.
The only way DIY auto tranny replacement with cheapy jyard units works out is for proficient DIY'ers who get lucky on getting a good unit, and who dont consider their time to be worth ALL that much.
When it comes down to it, a lot of people dont fit that criteria and a lot of people just arent willing to take the chance of the whole operation blowing up in their face vs just paying the $1200-up for a used install with labor warranty, or $2k for the full meal deal rebuild+warranty.
But lots of people do their own clutches. It has relatively low 'blow up in your face and cost you a bunch of time and money' potential.
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