Mid-Engine Track Cars

In reply to Huckleberry:

So I have seen Caymans and a few Boxsters at the few track days I have spectated at.

In my head it would seem that if you were a fan of Corvettes but needed a cheaper dedicated track car that is analogous to the Corvette you could get a Miata and maybe turbo it if needed (or S2000). So what would be the appropriate "cheaper" analog to the Cayman or Elise? I think the first thought would be 986 Boxster, but you don't see many of those out there.

With the various mid engine cars that have been built I figured something had to stand out as a good option for the towed-to-the-track dedicated track car stripped out for maximum mid-engine vehicle dynamics fun per buck... If only they made a mid engine Miata, would it be the answer of answers?

You're pretty close to a vette now, drop a v8 into your existing 944.

In reply to tooms351:

Well, I don't want a Vette, I'm more interested in some mid-enginedness... But I have thought about dropping a ~300whp LS motor in the 944 but that's a whole other topic.

I guess at this point I'm looking for what would is the closest to a mid-engined Miata?

Does front-mid-engine count? If so, then an S2000. :)

If you can afford it, Lotus Elise/Exige/Evora would probably be a great match for you.

MR2 Spyder would also be a good option as well. If you're willing to take on a project, they can be found in the sub $5k range these days.

If you're ok with less power, more challenge, the earlier MR2's, X1/9's, 914's, V6 Fiero's can be made into fun cars.

Or just go all nutzo crazy and track down a good project Esprit or Europa.

If you're locked into wanting mid-engine, and are willing to accept the quirks of the affordable options out there, then to hell with it.... this is GRM dammit, make it happen!

And don't forget to keep your build thread updated.

I bought a 914 with a 327sbc swap, dd and tracked it. The car was so fast I had to sell it before I got arrested or maimed. It was the ultimate sleeper, even with flares many people assumed it was a 4 cylinder dog! That car embaressed a lot of newer expensive cars and quite a few motorcycles.....at least up to 100mph!

Bland styling aside, I've heard very good things about the third generation MR2. Working within a 10k budget, that'd probably be the way that I'd go. The modern Porsche is the better car, but repair costs scare me away. 914s are fun, but antiquated. I own two Fiats, but don't recommend them for normal people. First and second gen MR2s are getting old and many have been put away pretty wet.

Build your own.

http://www.midlana.com

Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: Build your own. http://www.midlana.com

So much YES to building your own.

I'm eyeballing this one myself .... http://dfkitcar.com/

-Hans

I love my zzw30 mr2, it kicks ass on track.

Intentional oversteer pic for your viewing pleasure...

Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: Build your own. http://www.midlana.com

Given my Formula SAE background this is an awesome idea. I have thought about doing something similar using miata suspension + passat 1.8T longitudinal driveline in a custom tube-frame chassis, the problem I run into is my own "OCD" with regards to fabrication that I can't attain with my current rental carport and basic tool chest.

I'm really leaning towards the MR2 Spyder + turbo , since they can run the 15x10 6UL wheels and some sticky 245 racing slicks.

Later on I would love to build my own midlana like car or prototype replica, think SCCA DSR (now P2), once I have the proper resources.

In reply to LCubed:

Sounds like a perfect project for you, just focus on the goal of making it to the track, not perfect.

Perfection takes time and requires track time to know where to make changes and improvements. You can't do that if you're not on track. Keep a list of things you WANT to do and pick one or two every off season and attempt to implement them.

It also uses Miata suspension components and can swallow nearly any drivetrain you can think of. Stick to the plans, buy/borrow a cheap welder and setup a build table in your carport.

Or instead of messing with a track car in your current situation, focus on getting setup someplace where you have actual garage or shop space and potentially room for a tow pig.

LCubed wrote:

Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: Build your own. http://www.midlana.com

Given my Formula SAE background this is an awesome idea. I have thought about doing something similar using miata suspension + passat 1.8T longitudinal driveline in a custom tube-frame chassis, the problem I run into is my own "OCD" with regards to fabrication that I can't attain with my current rental carport and basic tool chest. I'm really leaning towards the MR2 Spyder + turbo , since they can run the 15x10 6UL wheels and some sticky 245 racing slicks. Later on I would love to build my own midlana like car or prototype replica, think SCCA DSR (now P2), once I have the proper resources.

Well lucky you! I'd be willing to part with my mr2 spyder's fully sorted turbo (214@wheels) drivetrain. I've got a 2zzge that I'm building for boost and am going with a new turbo setup this time around (rally potato vs disco potato). Hit me up if you're interested, I'm selling it as a turnkey package ( engine, turbo, full exhaust, tuned emanage blue, injectors, everything you need to have a kickass spyder).

By the way, I'm in third, rolling on, on 225 section r compound tires in that picture

I do a lot of HPDE. I drive BMW sedans. Around here you wind up running with BMW clubs and running with Porsche clubs. So, I spend a fair bit of time running with Boxsters.

I have an acquaintance in the Porsche club who grassroots-ed a Boxster S (bought a used one with a ratty paint job, pulled the motor and rebuilt it himself) and it is a respectable track car. He drives at my level and can run lap times on a clear track that are as good as mine when I'm driving my E92 M3. That suffers a bit in traffic because he can't get back on it like I can if somebody holds him up.

I have 3 sedans that I track as it is and I'm not looking for another one. But if I was, I would probably pick up a ratty Boxster S and freshen it up. They can be had for $8-9k around here andy day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Here is the thing with track cars; it doesn't matter what you use as long as it appeals to you. Other than the big horsepower tracks it doesn't matter whether it's 100 or 500 horsepower for the most part driver skill is more of a factor.

As for mid engine cars I've had a Miata and a first gen MR2, I like the Miata a lot more as I think they handle better.

I instruct at Porsche club track days so and have driven everything from 356 to Cayenne (sp). My first impression of the Caymen was how well lanced they were. Boxsters are great as well but for whatever reason I like the Caymen a bit more. I also like Spec Boxster and think that would be the way I'd go for a designated track car if I wanted something mid engine.

Due to a genetic defect I really like old front engine rear drive cars, hence my continuing to run the Datsun despite it having the beam axle leaf spring rear suspension. It's skates around on the tires, it's busy and work to drive which I find fun. Sure I pass lots of Porsches, Corvettes & other faster cars, that's down to driver experience, but again I really love flogging the cat regardless of who or what I pass.

For now make sure your 944 is in good order and have fun with it. After that find a Boxter and have fun with it.

Tom

I've owned a 91 MR2 since 1998 and a 87 MR2 since 2003. The aftermarket support for both cars is impressive. In Oklahoma we have Hallett Raceway which is a fast track. MR2s do very well. You have to learn to drive them though...when the tail steps out you can't lift off the throttle. You have to mash the throttle and counter steer. They are very similar to a Porsche 911 in how you drive them. The mid-engine design makes for extremely fast polar moment and they put the power down very early in corners due to the weight bias.

I once went to a Porsche Club track day--you can imagine the level of money spent on track Porsches. Well, despite that, my 91 MR2 made the fastest time of the day and I was then banned from any further Porsche Club events.

My 91 has heim joints every where. Bigger TRD sway bars and strut tower braces. The brakes are upgraded to MKIV Supra rotors in the front with Wilwood calipers and the rear has an extremely rare Border big brake kit. You can fit 255 size tires on the rear. So, braking is not an issue. You can easily get 300 bhp from a Turbo MR2.

My 87 is prepped similarly--it's naturally aspirated but built with extensive head work, Toda cams, and a lightweight flywheel. It's not the biggest bhp numbers but the 4AGE is a fantastic engine and responds to inputs instantly. Where the 91 simply grips and goes--the 87 tends to four wheel drift. The 91 is unforgiving and you have to stay on top of it. We had one guy with a prepped 91 MR2 race regularly at Hallett until he lost it in the corner known as "The Bitch". The car let loose at the rear and that was it--it hit the grass and flipped.

Of all the affordable mid-engine cars, I've obviously become enamored with the MR2. I don't think a Porsche 914 or a Fiero could ever match a MR2. Back in the day, they were raced in a series with the 944 as their main competition. And the MR2s did quite well.

Banned? That is just silly, fortunately PCA in my area is happy to accept all cars regardless of make or how slow or fast you are.

As for keepimg your foot in it when the tail steps out the 1200 is pretty much the same. I have driven a supercharged MR2 that this was especially so, the back just snapped 45 degrees instantly and planting the gas snapped it back straight (beware the amount of opposite lock you crank in as you may not be able to wind it back out fast enough). In the case of the MR2 there is a good bit of weight out back so I can see how one might change their driving style.

Yesterday my local craigslist had 3 boxsters for under 7K so they are cheap to buy. One of the ads even noted the IMS nearing had been changed and included reciepts.

I really like what I call my disposable Japanese cars although there not so disposable anymore.

Finally I am a touch envious of people who just track day but I'm not giving up racing. The down side of racing is that if you wish to be competitive than running a couple more events a set of tires isn't an option. Track days are for your own personal enjoyment so who cares if you go a couple of seconds slower.

Track days don't have timing, by design and I suspect there was something else involved with your "banning"

Tyler H wrote: The MR2 can make a fine track car. The problem is age and the fact that modern track day clientele bring big HP and big tires. You're going to be pointing people by unless you're thinking Elise or Cayman/Boxster.

There is some decent support for turbocharging the 4age. Matrix Garage makes a Mitsubishi and Garrett manifold and you have megasquirt pnp for it. Pair supporting mods and a supercharged or built engine with a GT28 turbo and you have a 300whp car in the making.

People even use just SC pistons and have success.

Here are a couple at the top end of your budget if you want something a little more dedicated. I got to admit, that MR-S looks like a blast.

V8 Corvair

FP MR Spyder

I raced MK1 MR2s and they were fast and fun right up until they try to kill you.

Loved them but they also demand respect.

You need to think about the open vs closed design. I wasn't comfortable tracking an open car and therefore sold my Boxster S. My track car progression is as follows:

'02 Boxster S. GREAT track except for that convertible issue.

944 Turbo, car was too perfect to track

'95 M3. Evolved from street car to track only toy. Makes me smile every time I track it. Never had a problem.

'91 944S2 with race 968 motor. SP1 car. Too hard to get in and out, especially in the trailer.

'94 Corvette Z07 pkg Stock drivetrain, upgraded suspension. More power than the M3, better aero and COG. The engine is actually below the top of the front tires and is behind the front axle.

I love driving to and from the track with the AC on and the cruise control working. I'm getting too old for the hassle of loading and unloading a trailer, changing tires and all the other track day stuff. I arrive and drive!

In reply to Stefan (Not Bruce):

The event was timed...it was an extremely tight course. Actually, it was the county Sheriff's driving course. Overall it was a horribly run event with people aimlessly walking across the course during hot laps...I sometimes wonder if the intelligence level of Porsche drivers is below normal.

However, I will say there is a good friend here in Tulsa that loves Porsches and he respects the cars. He actually has the earliest known 356--like the very first semi-production 356.

If you are a fan of vehicle dynamics give a RX-8 a try. Not mid - engined, but the engine is far back, low, light. Reliability is a concern, but it also means you can get a lot of car for the money. If you're considering options that are 15-45 years old it may make sense.

Another consideration for mid-rear engine'd track cars is tire wear - my '91 Mr2 eats up rear tires, and you can't rotate due to the stagger. So Miatas, which are technically mid-engine, have an advantage there.

That being said, I have done some track days with the MR2, and it works even better on track than it does on the street. You just have to be "on" all the time - if you relax and start to get behind, it will bite you.