Mildly interesting: TIL 0W16 oil is being used in some passenger cars in America

I was searching the internet for oil today & saw for the first time 0w16 being sold. I guess it's been is use for >5 years in the USA, and much longer in Japan. As I get older, I realize stuff like this continues to pass me by, so maybe you'd like to hear about it too

Looks like some of the cars that take it are: >2018 Fit, Camry, Prius C, some Honda hybrids

https://www.noln.net/articles/2277-the-skinny-on-ow-16-oil

^in use >20 years in Japan. 2% fuel economy improvement over 0w20. working on developing 0w8

Can't wait for negative viscocity oil

The stuff is like water. If you've not seen it up close go pick up a quart and see, it's super thin.  Almost all new Toyota 4s take the stuff. All Camry 4s after 18, corollas, prii, ravs, highlanders...

Of course, like everything else, most dealerships can't get approved brands in bulk so the cars are getting 0w20 instead, which is permissible in warmer climates. 

Wild times. 

Had to order some on Friday for an oil change.  When we called to tell the customer that her Toyota required some rather expensive oil, she balked and said that she never paid more than $30 for an oil change.

Our COST for the oil would have been more than $30.

The service manual says 0W20 may be used in an emergency but must be changed with 0W16 at the next service.  Looks like someone had been kicking that can down the road.

IMO it is a little silly given that a lot of these vehicles do spec 5W20 or 5W30 outside of North America, but using oil off spec is the first step to getting a warranty claim denied.

barefootcyborg5000 said:

The stuff is like water.

At room temperature it's about 40 times more viscous than water.  

red_stapler said:

barefootcyborg5000 said:

The stuff is like water.

At room temperature it's about 40 times more viscous than water.  

Come on, man. This is the internet. Don't get all correct and factual on us. 
It is very thin. Better?

At operating temp 0w20 and 0W10 are the same thing.  The gain is on the cold engine.

You got that backwards, both are 0w which means they're "the same" cold. Quotes because these aren't hard numbers but spec ranges. Interestingly there's some overlap between the 16 and 20 wt specs, so you could technically have an oil that qualified for either rating. Also apparently before the 16 spec was added the 20 spec allowed for oils that were even thinner than 16wt now, but nobody ever made anything that thin.

I was shocked when I looked in the owner's manual for my '19 Rav4 and saw the 0W16 spec, but I do see it stocked in the local chain auto parts stores. Sort of the polar opposite of what I buy for my '88 Porsche 924s...

In reply to dps214 :

Check out the cold vs hot viscosity of 0W60!

dps214 said:

You got that backwards, both are 0w which means they're "the same" cold. Quotes because these aren't hard numbers but spec ranges. Interestingly there's some overlap between the 16 and 20 wt specs, so you could technically have an oil that qualified for either rating. Also apparently before the 16 spec was added the 20 spec allowed for oils that were even thinner than 16wt now, but nobody ever made anything that thin.

Oops, got that backwards.  

One thing that has changed a lot over the time I've worked is the bearing materials and prep.  The "break in" procedure is so very good and the materials are so stable that thinner and thinner oil can be used.

In reply to alfadriver :

They also aren't making iron noodles that need huge amounts of bearing clearance, too.  I can't think of a modern engine that doesn't use a ladder frame type lower block half, or six bolt cross bolted main caps.

I wonder if the "spec" part of the 0w16 instead of 0w20 is more to meet MPG requirements.  They might not be able to legally state that 0w20 is ok, because of it.  I can't imagine tolerances are that tight that 20 weight would do any damage, but I'm not an auto engineer and am probably wrong. 

-Rob

I can foresee a lot of voided warranties because somebody didn't use the correct oil.  

In reply to spitfirebill :

I'm not sure that is even legal.  And if someone put in 0W20, it would still run fine- it's not that much thicker, and it's also incredibly common.

alfadriver said:

In reply to spitfirebill :

I'm not sure that is even legal.  And if someone put in 0W20, it would still run fine- it's not that much thicker, and it's also incredibly common.

Subaru voided warranties if they found autocross results for some of their cars.  

red_stapler said:

barefootcyborg5000 said:

The stuff is like water.

At room temperature it's about 40 times more viscous than water.  

User name checks out.

spitfirebill said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to spitfirebill :

I'm not sure that is even legal.  And if someone put in 0W20, it would still run fine- it's not that much thicker, and it's also incredibly common.

Subaru voided warranties if they found autocross results for some of their cars.  

that's very different.  I think there are laws protecting oil changes.  Autocrossing can be considered abuse.

spitfirebill said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to spitfirebill :

I'm not sure that is even legal.  And if someone put in 0W20, it would still run fine- it's not that much thicker, and it's also incredibly common.

Subaru voided warranties if they found autocross results for some of their cars.  

That sounds like something a lawyer would have some fun with, especially since there's no way to tell on results if the 2017 Subaru an owner competed in was actually his. 

Incidentally, my 09 WRX got full engine replacement at 8k miles, and it had competed in several autocrosses and actually spun a bearing during one - not because it was autocrossing, but because all the 09s built in two production months spun bearings, and it was a known problem).  Subaru didn't ask, I didn't tell (though I did take the SCCA sticker off of it before taking it to the dealer, lol). 

rob_lewis said:

I wonder if the "spec" part of the 0w16 instead of 0w20 is more to meet MPG requirements.  They might not be able to legally state that 0w20 is ok, because of it.  I can't imagine tolerances are that tight that 20 weight would do any damage, but I'm not an auto engineer and am probably wrong. 

-Rob

Part of it is for the variable valve timing.  The ECM is calibrated to control the solenoids with certain assumptions with respect to viscosity, how much time it takes to fill and empty the chambers in the actuators to advance and retard the cam timing.

The first step in diagnosing a VVT fault is always oil level/condition/correct viscosity.  I have seen a few times where too thick oil caused a fault, although it is usually old thinned out oil or absent oil.

I didn't really understand it; but I got the impression that the incompatibility between 0w16/0w20 may be due to a new set of  testing standards (disallowing backwards compatibility claims). I'd assume someone over on bobistheoilguy has explained what portion is mechanical incompatibility vs legal speak, in layman's terms.

"In the U.S., 0W16 oils were going to be part of the ILSAC GF-6 rollout as GF-6B oil. What is significant about GF-6B oils is that the specification will not be backward compatible because of the new viscosity grades. GF-6A lubricants being backward compatible means that GF-6A engine oils of the appropriate conventional viscosity grade are acceptable for use in cars whose owner’s manuals recommended previous GF categories (GF-1 through GF-5). GF-6B engine oils should only be used when recommended by the OEM (follow the owner’s manual). 0W8 is another planned viscosity that will be in the GF-6B category"

https://www.tirereview.com/0w16-oil-different-0w20/

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to dps214 :

Check out the cold vs hot viscosity of 0W60!

Isn't 0w60 just 0w40 with a boatload of VII? I run 10w60 and I understand that shears down to 50 so quick you can almost hear it.

I have been using 0-20 for 300,000 miles in various Honda Ridgelines. The stuff obviously works because I have had zero engine issues, but man it looks weird to pour what looks like pee into your engine at every oil change.

Tim Suddard said:

I have been using 0-20 for 300,000 miles in various Honda Ridgelines. The stuff obviously works because I have had zero engine issues, but man it looks weird to pour what looks like pee into your engine at every oil change.

Definitely one of those cases where the first couple times you just have to remind myself "the engineers knew it needed to run on this stuff when they designed it, so..."

That said, I always get a little nervous when a manufacturer suddenly decides that an engine should have thinner oil, back-dates that recommendation to older years, etc. and yet has changed nothing about the engine.  But if it's designed to be lubed with slippery water from the start, it's all good. 

In reply to Tim Suddard :

oW20 is a really decent oil for the daily driver. All the VI improvers they used to reach those specs makes it pretty fuel dilution resistant. Sadly I left the day to day world of oil analysis before the oW16 started to become prevalent. I imagine it's similar in that regard.