NASCRAP...what a joke.

NASCAR isn't the only series to "level the playing field" in an attempt to make the races about "driver skill." I seem to remember IRL doing the same thing even as far as to spec the Honda engines. I agree it might be crap to make it a spec series, at least apart from a few miniscule hp between manufacturers. But, they are doing what they can to bring in the fans and if you don't like it you don't have to watch.

It takes a huge amount of talent to drive a big heavy brick on skinny tires with relatively little down force, at close to 200mph, with a up to 43 cars on the track at the same time. The cars are on the edge of losing control a large portion of the time.

You can love or hate NASCAR but the drivers are skilled.

My mom (63 years old) loves nascar, she says it is just like the soap operas of the '70s but with more action.

I think NASCAR drivers are incredibly skilled!. Think about it. They are piloting vehicles around a banked dish (road courses excepted) at nearly 200 miles-per-hour which to not have the stability and downforce engineered into them as a LeMans prototype, F1 car or Indy Car. Yes, the may be "safer" than the latter two ina crash, but a crash is more likely.

Remember that the reason the winged cars were banned was because speeds were becoming too high. I would rather see production-based cars (hopefully designed with motorsports in mind by the manufacturers), running around a track at 175 MPH than what we have now.

What we have now is equivalent to an aircraft carrier catapult. Just as a carrier's catapult can launch a plane with enough force to kill the pilot (if power was turned up), cars can be made to go so fast that they are beyond the capabilities of drivers and safety equipment. The answer may be to go to smaller dispacement, slower, production based cars.

I say, go to a Camaro, Mustang, Challenger series and use gearing and computers to limit top speeds. This would keep speeds within reasonable ranged, but not scrub power below the speed limiters. You could get some passing. Either that or run LMP cars in NASCAR. At least they have better stability at speed.

ddavidv wrote: This: was racing. This: is just silly marketing.

QFT

Wow, the NASCRAP joke is as clever as it ever was.

If you don't like it, don't watch it. I'm not an F1 fan, but I don't watch their races just so I can come here and complain about how bad the racing is.

Seemed to me that the new rules package let the drivers pull out and pass a lot easier than in recent plate races. That's a good thing. Maybe if we recognize a step in the right direction instead of just bitch about how NASCAR causes cancer, we'll get another step in the right direction.

And I won't even comment on the no talent bit.

As for people complaining about debris cautions: I didn't watch every second of the race, but I didn't see any debris cautions last night. Did I miss one?

You can buy used Nascars for in the mid 20's. (late 90's cars) my boss is looking @ getting one for advertising. I can't help but think it would be a lot of fun @ HPDE's

this probably isn't practical .. and NASCAR officials probably don't want it since the bumper car affect would be lost .. but ... I've advocated for yrs that they be given back their engines ( no restrictor plates ) take away most of their non-OEM aero ( just keep enough to keep them on the ground on the straight-aways), mandate a front spring that would keep the nose of the car OFF the pavement .... this would result in drivers having to actually lift to negotiate corners ... then they would be able to drive past others that didn't get the corner right .... net result ... we'd again have "racing" at the big tracks

I'll accept that NASCAR has become the WWF of racing.

I'll just use a wrestling quote to express how I feel about it:

"You can fake the fights and the story lines... but you cant fake the gravity" (or physics)

Fendered formula racing in this form is boring. They have to make it exciting somehow...

I don't normally watch nascar, so I should keep my mouth shut. Never the less, I will state publicly that I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Argo1 wrote: NASCAR is the WWF of motorsports. Good guys. Bad guys. All fake.

True.

Argo1 wrote: There is no skill there.

I used to say the same thing about drag racing, but then I tried it. I've only done it a few times, but it was very apparent that the guys who do it all the time were staging better [I now know that an inch can make a big difference] and getting better reaction times than me. I even missed shifts. It may not involve the same skills that I'm used to from autocross, but there are certainly skills that can be honed.

I'm guessing that the same is true of roundy-round with stock cars. I haven't tried it, so I'm not willing to say that no skill is involved. If that were the case, anybody could do it successfully.

Argo1 wrote: There is no racing technology there.

They took their series-mandated technology and extracted every last drop of performance from it. Sounds a lot like formula ford/formula vee, spec miata, etc.

I don't like NASCAR so I don't watch it, but I definitely have respect for the cars and the drivers. I'm not saying Dale Jr. is on par with Fernando Alonso, but they've got balls to hang on in those contraptions at 200mph with no grip in a corner.
And, having been close to many retired cup cars at school, setting up the chassis/suspension, running a couple on a dyno after tuning the carb/exhaust/everything else, and building a cup engine, I will say that they are impressive machines. Most of the instructors at school worked for NASCAR back in the heyday, some worked even recently, and the knowledge and skill the people behind the cars and engines have is phenomenal.
an engine is an engine is an engine, and someone getting 800 crank hp out of a 358 ci with no power adders and a carburetor definitely deserves respect.

forzav12 wrote: For a group proudly using motorsports in their site name, the amount of ignorance posted in this thread so far is staggering. and to the clown using the word "crackers", really?

QFT. + 1000

I suggest you haters step back and simply say, "Thank you".

If NASCAR and the marketing it creates and the money it exchanges did not exist, many of the advanced technologies you enjoy on both your street drivers and your race cars would not exist.

Good luck developing your own tire compound technologies in your garage.

I don't watch NASCAR, but I'm sure glad it is there.

Giggity.

Sorry but NASCAR prevents technology, it doesn't advance it except in the narrowest sense. If you want advancements for road technology you have to look to ALMS or Grand AM.

ddavidv wrote: This: was racing. This: is just silly marketing.

Probably not the best pictures for comparisons... I am sure the many of the previous NASCAR generation thought the aero cars ruined NASCAR forever. lol

Mama always said that you can't complain unless you have a better answer. This may not be better but it is my thoughts on how to make NASCAR relevent to today and restore it to a race series that incourages manufacturer involvement and technology advancements that mean something. It would also restore "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" as well as fan brand support instead of just driver support that we have now. Here are my thoughts for a new rules framework. Chime in with your thoughts: Rules concept:

Eligible cars: Four door sedans sold in the US with a wheelbase of 112 inches or greater. Rear wheel drive, front wheel drive, and all wheel drive are allowed based on what is sold to the public in that model. Six, eight, ten, or twelve cylinder engines are allowed based on what is sold to the public in that model. Engines must use production block, head, and displacement sold in that model, but may be modified for performance. Cars that are sold with superchargers or turbochargers may use them if original equipment on the engine. Diesel would be allowed with equivalency. Cars must achieve a minimum of 8 mpg during the race (10mpg on superspeedways). Cars must meet equal CO emission targets. Minimum weight of the car will be based on engine size. Bodywork must match manufacturer’s templates except as allowed for specific allowed aerodynamic aides and wheel clearance changes individual to each car. Specified rear wings or spoilers are allowed. Safety roof flaps are required. Bodies must be mounted straight and centered on the chassis. Mechanical or electronic driving aids are not allowed. Data telemetry is not allowed.

Some of the cars elegible:

Aston Martin Rapide 6.0 V12 117.7 RWD Audi A8 4.2 V8 117.8 AWD BMW 5 Series 4.4 V8 120.9 RWD/ AWD Cadillac CTS 6.2 V8 113.4 RWD/ AWD Chevy Malibu 112.3 Chrysler 300 5.7 V8 120.2 RWD/ AWD Dodge Charger 5.7 V8 120.2 RWD/ AWD Ford Taurus 3.5 V6 112.9 AWD Hyundai Genesis 4.6 V8 115.6 RWD Infiniti G 3.7 V6 112.2 RWD/ AWD Infiniti M 5.6 V8 114.2 RWD/ AWD Jaguar XF 5.0 V8 114.5 RWD Lexus GS 4.6 V8 112.2 RWD/ AWD Lincoln MKS 3.7 V6 112.9 AWD Maserati Quatroporte 4.6 V8 120.6 RWD Mercedes E550 5.5 V8 113.2 RWD/ AWD Mercedes CSL 6.3 V8 112.4 RWD Porsche Panamera 4.8 V8 115.0 AWD Subaru Legacy 3.6 H6 118.3 AWD

Weight penalty and aerodynamic drag penalties are assessed based on finishing positions up to a maximum of 200 lbs and one square foot of frontal area.

Nationwide series could allow 2 door cars with shorter wheelbases and 4,6, or 8 cylinders with a similar rules concept.

In reply to Argo1:

you're kidding... right?

Argo1 wrote: Mama always said that you can't complain unless you have a better answer. This may not be better but it is my thoughts on how to make NASCAR relevent to today and restore it to a race series that incourages manufacturer involvement and technology advancements that mean something. It would also restore "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" as well as fan brand support instead of just driver support that we have now. Here are my thoughts for a new rules framework. Chime in with your thoughts: Rules concept: Eligible cars: Four door sedans sold in the US with a wheelbase of 112 inches or greater. Rear wheel drive, front wheel drive, and all wheel drive are allowed based on what is sold to the public in that model. Six, eight, ten, or twelve cylinder engines are allowed based on what is sold to the public in that model. Engines must use production block, head, and displacement sold in that model, but may be modified for performance. Cars that are sold with superchargers or turbochargers may use them if original equipment on the engine. Diesel would be allowed with equivalency. Cars must achieve a minimum of 8 mpg during the race (10mpg on superspeedways). Cars must meet equal CO emission targets. Minimum weight of the car will be based on engine size. Bodywork must match manufacturer’s templates except as allowed for specific allowed aerodynamic aides and wheel clearance changes individual to each car. Specified rear wings or spoilers are allowed. Safety roof flaps are required. Bodies must be mounted straight and centered on the chassis. Mechanical or electronic driving aids are not allowed. Data telemetry is not allowed. Some of the cars elegible: Aston Martin Rapide 6.0 V12 117.7 RWD Audi A8 4.2 V8 117.8 AWD BMW 5 Series 4.4 V8 120.9 RWD/ AWD Cadillac CTS 6.2 V8 113.4 RWD/ AWD Chevy Malibu 112.3 Chrysler 300 5.7 V8 120.2 RWD/ AWD Dodge Charger 5.7 V8 120.2 RWD/ AWD Ford Taurus 3.5 V6 112.9 AWD Hyundai Genesis 4.6 V8 115.6 RWD Infiniti G 3.7 V6 112.2 RWD/ AWD Infiniti M 5.6 V8 114.2 RWD/ AWD Jaguar XF 5.0 V8 114.5 RWD Lexus GS 4.6 V8 112.2 RWD/ AWD Lincoln MKS 3.7 V6 112.9 AWD Maserati Quatroporte 4.6 V8 120.6 RWD Mercedes E550 5.5 V8 113.2 RWD/ AWD Mercedes CSL 6.3 V8 112.4 RWD Porsche Panamera 4.8 V8 115.0 AWD Subaru Legacy 3.6 H6 118.3 AWD Weight penalty and aerodynamic drag penalties are assessed based on finishing positions up to a maximum of 200 lbs and one square foot of frontal area. Nationwide series could allow 2 door cars with shorter wheelbases and 4,6, or 8 cylinders with a similar rules concept.

I remember the turmoil when Toyota entered the fray.. could you imagine Hyundai?

jmc14 wrote: It takes a huge amount of talent to drive a big heavy brick on skinny tires with relatively little down force, at close to 200mph, with a up to 43 cars on the track at the same time. The cars are on the edge of losing control a large portion of the time. You can love or hate NASCAR but the drivers are skilled.

When I visited Daytona a few years back with my son, we took the tram-tour; the first thing I noticed is how narrow the track actually is from the apron to the wall--I found a new respect to the idea of running three-wide at 185-195MPH. There is very little room for error; these guys not only are skilled but have some big brass ones to do this type of racing.

Drag Racing is like chess (or sex). It is easy to do, but challenging to do well.

JoeyM wrote: I don't normally watch nascar, so I should keep my mouth shut. Never the less, I will state publicly that I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Argo1 wrote: NASCAR is the WWF of motorsports. Good guys. Bad guys. All fake.

True.

Argo1 wrote: There is no skill there.

I used to say the same thing about drag racing, but then I tried it. I've only done it a few times, but it was very apparent that the guys who do it all the time were staging better [I now know that an inch can make a big difference] and getting better reaction times than me. I even missed shifts. It may not involve the same skills that I'm used to from autocross, but there are certainly skills that can be honed. I'm guessing that the same is true of roundy-round with stock cars. I haven't tried it, so I'm not willing to say that no skill is involved. If that were the case, anybody could do it successfully.

Argo1 wrote: There is no racing technology there.

They took their series-mandated technology and extracted every last drop of performance from it. Sounds a lot like formula ford/formula vee, spec miata, etc.

No matter how you want to slice it, NASCAR is laughable. Drivers don't have the skills of years gone by when you HAD to drive to get to the end. Nowadays it is just the luck of staying out of trouble and staying in the head of race control man's good graces.....

Technology at least finally got into the end of the 20th century.

Argo1 wrote: Sorry but NASCAR prevents technology, it doesn't advance it except in the narrowest sense. If you want advancements for road technology you have to look to ALMS or Grand AM.

Only if you believe that companies like Falken, Yokohama, and Cooper (ALMS sponsors), or Continental and Canadian Tire (Grand Am sponsors) are the only ones doing technological development and Goodyear and Penske (NASCAR sponsors) are not offering any technological advances.

Follow the money. You're nuts if you think the amount of money that changes hands through NASCAR doesn't have a direct impact on technological innovation.

I pine for the days of Smokey. That was Nascar. Money ruins all professional sports.

In reply to aussiesmg:

Now that was an inovator

Argo1 wrote: I don't know why. I get sucked in every year. I had the TV on during the Daytona Shootout. What a pitiful excuse for motorsports. I used to think NASCAR was good because it popularized what was once a "fringe" sport and brought a lot of sponsors into motorsports. Now it just makes a joke out of it and sucks sponsors away from legitimate racing series. NASCAR is the WWF of motorsports. Good guys. Bad guys. All fake. There is no skill there. There is no racing technology there. There isn't anything on those tanks that wasn't on a production car in 1957. The latest "breakthrough" is throttle body fuel injection. Woohoo. The drivers just ride around waiting for somebody to get bored and stupid and wreck everybody. Then they clean up the track, rack'em up again and repeat. There is no racing line - they can go high, low, anywhere. Just driving down the freeway. No fast cars or slow cars. Doesn't matter. They are all in a clump. A guy in last may be first in three laps...and then back. Not based on skill or car. I'm done with my rant.. Won't make the mistake of watching the 500. I've got more important things to do like sort my sock drawer. Hurry up and bring on Sebring!

I just hate the fact that their cars have cheap plastic in the interior...