New Cars Suck - Part II

red_stapler said:

The Gen 3 engine in 2015+ model years is a lot more reliable, with none of the manifold, water pump, or chain tensioner issues.

I feel like VW guys say this on a rolling basis. In 2000, the VWs post-1995 were reliable, and any before then had issues. In 2005, the VWs post-2000 were reliable, and any before then had issues. In 2010, the VWs post-2005 were reliable, and any before then had issues. In 2015, the VWs post-2010 were reliable, and any before then had issues. The only way we can assess reliability is by looking at past models, with 100-150k miles on them. A 2015+ is just too new to have proven itself reliable yet. There's literally no way to say that a 3 year old model with, say, an average of 50k miles on them, is "long term reliable."

In reply to frenchyd :

No offense taken, Frenchy.  (It wasn't just you, either.)  I will say, though, that the math with regard to the tax incentives isn't as easy as it seems at first glance, though. 

Let's say you buy a $35k electron-car.  Unless you happen to have 350,000 dimes laying around, you've financed that for, say, 5 years at $600 per month.  Now, you wait some number of months and then you file your taxes.  If you don't pay 7500 in federal taxes every year you don't get 7500 in tax credits (you can't have a negative tax bill!).  Same with the 3000 MD tax credit.  But even let's say you can get 10k back.  And that you're super conscientious and put that 10k towards paying off the car loan.  You still have to pay 600 per month- it's just for a year or so less than you normally would.  So, yeah, you save 10k...or you use it to make your payments for a year...but you're still making 600/month payments for 4 years.  

You also need a garage-y space to install a charger.  Right now I don't really have a garage that I could charge in.  

With a ~90 mile round trip commute, the Volt's electric range won't get me even to work, let alone home.  Work has no way for me to plug in.  So the MPGe would be something like 50-60 mpg, assuming I did plug in at home.  The payback period on that vs. a 35 mpg traditional car is...a while.  

In reply to dculberson :

Exactly what I was thinking.  

"We've solved all the problems we had before".  Yeah, and created new ones.  

volvoclearinghouse said:

Adrian_Thompson said:

As usual I'll chime in as a (the?) dissenting voice.  I love Mazda's, they are fun to drive, but I have to say all the 3's I've ever been in have been sorely lacking in the NVH department. 

OP's [me] current DD is a '91 Volvo 240 with 214,412 miles on it.  Any new car, methinks, is going to be a revelation in terms of NVH.  

I do see that Volvo is restyling the V60 for 2019.  A 2014-2018 CPO V60 might be a smart buy.  No manual trans *le sigh*.  

EDIT: just checked.  Seats down, a V60 has 48 cubic feet of cargo capacity.  The Mazda 3?  47 cubic feet.  

Don't be too sure.  I count the ride of air cooled torsion bar 911's superior to that of the Mazda speed 3.  I find the rear suspension of all Mazda 3's to be overly harsh for the type of vehicle.  I don't just consider NVH in absolute terms I count it as in relation to the vehicle and period.  I find 3's lacking in what they should be and annoying as a result.  I guess it could be me, but I've always liked, wanted to like 3's, but every time I drive or ride in one I come away sorely disappointed.    Ditto the Mazda 2.  It's the same platform as the Fiesta, but always feels like a penalty box in comparison.  

On Mazda reliability and rust:

My 2012 3 has been VERY reliable. It is not a Skyactiv car; it has the old MZR 2.5. It runs as well now as the day I bought it new. Also, going on 7 years now (my car was built in July 2011), there's no body rust at all. The door hinges did turn a rusty color, but they are not crumbling apart or anything like that, and I keep an eye on them. Undercarriage, fenders, wheel wells, and quarters are not showing any signs of rust, and I live in New England and drive it through every winter in every storm. My wife's old 2010 with 160K on it when we recently traded it in had some "self-inflicted issues" but no rust at all, and that was built in 2009. I haven't seen a rusty 2nd gen 3 ever. 

The only non-maintenance failures on my car was a weld on the driver's seat bracket and an emissions-related purge valve. The seat was fixed with a quick tack weld, and I improved the design by welding in a washer instead of the push washer that loosened up which caused the failure in the first place. This was also a known issue, and dealers were fixing this as a safety item, but I fixed it before they issued a service bulletin. The valve was replaced at the dealer for about $300, mainly because I was too lazy to do the work myself, as you had to drop the rear suspension to access it (and it was in the middle of winter). That was the ONLY time it ever went to the dealer, and  it happened around 150k miles. 

Other than that, the two other wear item failures were the transmission mount (twice) and the rear end links. Other than that: gas, oil, tires and brakes so far for over 164K miles with no signs of stopping. Only other complaint I had was the transmission: early on, it would grind occasionally into 2nd. I switched to Redline fluid and this went away and has not returned. 

I cannot say enough good things about these cars. I would recommend one to anyone. 

That said...

1st Gen 3's and 6's are ALL crumbling apart here. It's rare to see one without heavy rust on the road now.  And then there's the 2009-13 6's subframe issues; it remains to be seen if the 3's will have the same problem. I sure hope not. 

volvoclearinghouse said:

"We've solved all the problems we had before".  Yeah, and created new ones.  

 Could not have said it better myself, as that was exactly how the VW 2.0 TSI was billed relative to the outgoing FSI.  Silly, silly, silly me - wishful thinking had me believing that !!!  But, as I said earlier - is IS a fun car to drive

Buy a new Miata!

Adrian_Thompson said:

As usual I'll chime in as a (the?) dissenting voice.  I love Mazda's, they are fun to drive, but I have to say all the 3's I've ever been in have been sorely lacking in the NVH department. 

FYI, Mazda has identified this as a weak point in their cars and it's an area of focus. One of the CX5 refreshes - 2017, I think - was something like 50% quieter than the previous version. So I would not make assumptions on current Mazda NVH levels based on previous experience.

volvoclearinghouse said:

Let's say you buy a $35k electron-car.  Unless you happen to have 350,000 dimes laying around, you've financed that for, say, 5 years at $600 per month.  Now, you wait some number of months and then you file your taxes.  If you don't pay 7500 in federal taxes every year you don't get 7500 in tax credits (you can't have a negative tax bill!).  Same with the 3000 MD tax credit.  But even let's say you can get 10k back.  And that you're super conscientious and put that 10k towards paying off the car loan.  You still have to pay 600 per month- it's just for a year or so less than you normally would.  So, yeah, you save 10k...or you use it to make your payments for a year...but you're still making 600/month payments for 4 years.  

You also need a garage-y space to install a charger.  Right now I don't really have a garage that I could charge in.  

With a ~90 mile round trip commute, the Volt's electric range won't get me even to work, let alone home.  Work has no way for me to plug in.  So the MPGe would be something like 50-60 mpg, assuming I did plug in at home.  The payback period on that vs. a 35 mpg traditional car is...a while.  

For Volt prices, Bolt would do it.  You can charge in your driveway, no need for a Garage. No need to "install" a charger or charge at work.  The included charge cable does 230v 12a which is 90+ miles of range overnight. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Indeed, I did not find the 3 to be any worse in this area than the Civic or Cruze, in the course of my test drives.

volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to dculberson :

Exactly what I was thinking.  

"We've solved all the problems we had before".  Yeah, and created new ones.  

I'm not sure what issues will be cropping up in my wife’s car, but I can say that VW is still trying to find fixes to problems that don’t exist - the oil pan is plastic, and the drain plugs are disposable one time use.

My ex- just bought a Golf Alltrak 6MT last week.  It replaced her cursed '02 Grand Cherokee.  Honestly, I was a bit surprised she bought it but I think after all the issues she had with the Jeep and the Volvo 850 wagon before that, I think she has sworn off automatic transmissions.

We shall see if it burns her on the reliability front. 

green? I like it

einy said:

volvoclearinghouse said:

"We've solved all the problems we had before".  Yeah, and created new ones.  

 Could not have said it better myself, as that was exactly how the VW 2.0 TSI was billed relative to the outgoing FSI.  Silly, silly, silly me - wishful thinking had me believing that !!!  But, as I said earlier - is IS a fun car to drive

I hope it's clear that I'm not posting from a position of "VW has this new engine it's going to be great" but more of a "The GTI people I hang out with have actually had less trouble over the past 4 years than with the previous generation"

Hi volvoclearinghouse,

FWIW, I’ve owned five Mazda’s (GLC, B2000, Second Gen RX-7, RX-8, First Gen RX-7)…all have been exceptionally reliable (except the Renesis engine in my RX-8) and all have well delivered on Mazda’s Zoom-Zoom promise of being a lot of fun to drive.

Like you, I’m an engineer and I know exactly what I want. Also like you, the lame a$$ bells and whistles that pass for progress today (silly kids) leave me wildly unsatisfied.

I could easily drop some pretty serious coin on a car but I’m in that position because I’d never drop some pretty serious coin on a car (depreciating asset – durp).

Anyway, I don’t know anything about rust (because California) but Mazda’s are my go-to solution for a prudent, trustworthy, and enjoyable brand.

Good luck

mad_machine said:

green? I like it

green or bluish-green depending on the angle and light quality.  Cool brown interior. 

OK, I have owned a Golf '18 Sportwagen with zero options, FWD and 5MT. (4WD have 6MT.) 3000 miles. They are selling ALL these well under list.

I am very pleased. Fun to drive, fantastic mileage, quiet, great road car, sufficient grunt, great interior,  even have a track day on it. I am delighted. Ask me anything. Except how it will hold up. Dunno. Good warranty?

NGTD said:

drainoil said:

NGTD said:

Do you live where they use salt?

I just looked at a 75k km (45k miles) Mazda 3 that has literally no rear fenders and seriously compromised sills. I mean like 3-4 inches of the rear fenders gone to iron oxide.

I won't even look at Mazda's because of this. Many of the Japanese brands aren't much better, but Mazda is the worst. The European brands and the North American brands are much better, in general.

I concur! Many Mazda’s in my area with rust around rear wheel wells and rockers. 

This is not uncommon.

berkeleying move!

8valve said:

volvoclearinghouse said:

Let's say you buy a $35k electron-car.  Unless you happen to have 350,000 dimes laying around, you've financed that for, say, 5 years at $600 per month.  Now, you wait some number of months and then you file your taxes.  If you don't pay 7500 in federal taxes every year you don't get 7500 in tax credits (you can't have a negative tax bill!).  Same with the 3000 MD tax credit.  But even let's say you can get 10k back.  And that you're super conscientious and put that 10k towards paying off the car loan.  You still have to pay 600 per month- it's just for a year or so less than you normally would.  So, yeah, you save 10k...or you use it to make your payments for a year...but you're still making 600/month payments for 4 years.  

You also need a garage-y space to install a charger.  Right now I don't really have a garage that I could charge in.  

With a ~90 mile round trip commute, the Volt's electric range won't get me even to work, let alone home.  Work has no way for me to plug in.  So the MPGe would be something like 50-60 mpg, assuming I did plug in at home.  The payback period on that vs. a 35 mpg traditional car is...a while.  

For Volt prices, Bolt would do it.  You can charge in your driveway, no need for a Garage. No need to "install" a charger or charge at work.  The included charge cable does 230v 12a which is 90+ miles of range overnight. 

I’ve noted around here more and more companies are  quietly adding outlets on their parking lot lights.  I suspect that’s one of those low cost perks they can do to attract and keep good employees.  

Most of the motels have had outlets on their parking lot lights because winter here is brutal and it’s better to spend a couple of dollars so guests can plug in their car heaters and have the car start in the morning rather than have their waiting rooms jammed with guests who’s car failed to start. 

yupididit said:

NGTD said:

drainoil said:

NGTD said:

Do you live where they use salt?

I just looked at a 75k km (45k miles) Mazda 3 that has literally no rear fenders and seriously compromised sills. I mean like 3-4 inches of the rear fenders gone to iron oxide.

I won't even look at Mazda's because of this. Many of the Japanese brands aren't much better, but Mazda is the worst. The European brands and the North American brands are much better, in general.

I concur! Many Mazda’s in my area with rust around rear wheel wells and rockers. 

This is not uncommon.

berkeleying move!

I have not seen that much rust since the 70s

I bought a Mazda3 Sport hatchback with 6 speed and 2.0 Skyactiv in 2014. Loved it except I found the seats horribly uncomfortable, so I sold it about 4 months later. I’m silly tall though - your comfort may vary. But I recommend take a LONG test drive. 

Highway mpg was 39-40 on 87 octane fuel. Terrific car that I wish I could have kept.

We've had 4 Mazdas over the years; my dad bought a 1200 wagon when we were living in Hawaii, then car ran flawless but was underpowered for driving up and over the Pali or Like Like Hwy (pronounced lee-key lee-kee) I've had a Protege and Miata. We have a Miata for my son. All of them were super reliable and fun to drive. 

The only negative thing I have to say is they are a bit boomy as interior noise goes.

STM317 said:

Is manual required for this exercise? Next question: Why? I mean can you actually enjoy a manual on your lengthy daily commute or is it just cruising?

Some people have a visceral need to always be in the wrong gear at the wrong time.

Without reading the whole thread.

Nothing with a timing chain is reliable.  Period.  I don't care if it is built by GM or VW or Honda or Toyota.  If it has a timing chain, the chain and/or guides will wear out as fast or faster than a belt's scheduled maintenance.  Only, there IS no scheduled chain maintenance.  The maintenance schedule is, when the chain jumps time, you buy a new car like a good little consumer.

Knurled. said:

Without reading the whole thread.

 

Nothing with a timing chain is reliable.  Period.  I don't care if it is built by GM or VW or Honda or Toyota.  If it has a timing chain, the chain and/or guides will wear out as fast or faster than a belt's scheduled maintenance.  Only, there IS no scheduled chain maintenance.  The maintenance schedule is, when the chain jumps time, you buy a new car like a good little consumer.

 

 

Oh really?