Oh No, I'm Disagreeing With A Professional Driver About Technique.

So I was reading a column by Randy Pobst and the short of it is he's saying that powering out of trouble is a myth. He noted FWD being an exception. The case being if the back end has already lost traction there isn't any traction left to add power which transfer the weight to the rear tires. He backs this up by noting when does stability control ever add power, point well taken and for modern car I would agree with this. He noted that steering will fix it or if it's to far gone both feet out as the saying goes. All well and good BUT......

I was left thinking "dude have you ever driven a 100hp leaf sprung RWD car?" 

Case in point the Datsun; it is not uncommon that a set of bumps will unload the rear end, and the car will snap 45 degrees, opposite lock alone won't fix it fast enough because the steering is too slow, in fact loads of opposite lock will likely result in a tank slapper because you can't wind it back out fast enough. The fix is to pin the throttle and wait, once the rear suspension loads again it will snap back straight, when the car gets back to about 15 degrees you need to come out of the throttle, if the car starts to go back more than 15 degrees the other way.....pin the throttle. Basically you have to plan for spring wind up. Per the Nissan competition suspension manual there is no panhard bar. Note this situation seldom arises but when it does Lord help you if you try to fix it purely with opposite lock. Also note I once used this technique to get out trouble in a bone stock RX7.

So, while I understand I'm being a pedant (cause I am), I'm left with that uncomfortable feeling of being an amateur disagreeing with a professional who has way more talent and experience than I could ever hope to.......it's not going to make me change what I'm doing.

Or anything with a rear / mid engine configuration.  Come off the throttle in times of trouble and you've multiplied your problems by a huge factor.  Adding a bit of throttle can tighten your line in fact.  So yeah, disagreement here too.

Yeah, thats puzzling as you can increase rear traction via weight transfer if you have gotten discombobulated, especially in the case of lift throttle oversteer. That said, it is true that its not really the fast way; getting in way too hot and then flamboyantly powering out.. 

I would agree that "powering out of trouble is a myth" is probably a slight generalization. However, it's only a slight generalization. 

But there's always nuance. What's the difference between "you're already in trouble" and "you're controlling a slight drift"? What about a difference in goals? Are you at the point where you are simply trying to save it and stay in control? Or are you trying to stay in the race?

In reply to racerdave600 :

My first thought was *laughs in 911*. The modern cars have enough power that it's kinda not the case, or at least you can still pretty easily get in trouble by adding power. But for anything under ~250hp, the driving method is to chuck it into the corner, get the rear end unstuck with weight transfer, then plant the throttle and power out of the corner. That's certainly a unique situation that doesn't apply to 99% of drivers and cars though.

I've spent most of my autocross and track time in mid engine cars of various flavors, and there will come a point where the back end steps out, and if you lift at that point you will be backing into something.  You do have to be very gentle in your throttle application though.  If you are a full on, full off throttle person, having the engine in the back is not the configuration for you.  One of the best parts of motorsports though is balancing and turning the car on throttle.  

I've not read the colum but I think what your getting hung up on is situations where the rear is within the envelop of having cornering force available.   I don't believe that is what he is talking about.  Maybe it is again don't have the column.  

In a situation where you are in Steady State cornering and the rear has lost traction (Oversteer that is beyond the limits of the tire) in a RWD car you cannot use power to recover.  The only options you would have would be to reduce the tractive force expected from the tire (Increase corner radius through reduced steering input) or Increase availaible traction through increased normal force on the rear tires.  You are physically incapable of increasing the normal force on the tire because any weight transfer would have to come from increased force out of the tires that have already exceeded their tractive limit.  Therefore the ONLY option available in this is to reduce steering. 

Now you can't just close the throttle you have to hold steady throttle because 2 things will happen that will make the oversteer worse.   Closed throttle will put longitudinal load on tires already at their lateral load limit and thus further reduce the lateral force the tire generates and the normal force on the tire will reduce as weight transfers to the front.  

For the example of an early 911 "powering out of corners" your not talking about the same thing.  The technique you are talking about is where you INDUCE oversteer not generate it naturally.  It is very effective in the 911 because ot the stability offered by the PMOI of the RR layout and the caster force in the 911 steering assists in recovering from induced slides (Provided you don't lift the trottle).  Even in a 911 if you take it to oversteer in a steady corner you can't use power to recover.  

I'm not a huge fan of him, but I'm thinking something has probably been lost in translation there. On a slow day he's faster than 9/10ths of us in any of our own cars.

 

Not every solution applies to every car.  In fact there are often different solutions to the same problem that is dictated by driver skill and or where you want the car to end up once you get things under control.  I have used both power and lift to get out of trouble in the same car with the tail coming around.  The key is to understand and feel all the other factors.  How the car is loaded up, what speed you are carrying, what is the current position of the front wheels, what are you exit options, are there other cars in proximity to you?  Track pavement conditions.  Track pavement conditions where you are going to end up or the lack of pavement where youa re going to end up?  All are things that have to be processed in a nanno second.  This is what really good drivers do with out even thinking about it.  It is what I am lacking when I get back in a car after some time away from the track and it takes more than a lap or three to get back.  It is that 10/10ths or even 11/10th that some drivers seem to get out of a car that us mortals just stare at in wonderment.  

@ the OP there is absolutely nothing to worry regarding questioning anyone.  It is how people learn.  The best drivers are still learning.  Also I think you are under rating your self as you have reached a level that allows you to question this kind of thing. 

When professional drivers give as advise is often the safe answer for the very inexperienced.  Getting off the throttle may result in a spin BUT you did not hit anything.  For the inexperienced driver powering out of a problem is not intuitive and can result in much worse things happening. Knowing when to power out of a problem is a learned skill.  As such I can see why Mr Pobst is giving the statistically safe answer.

There are exceptions to every rule, but in most situations and in most kinds of vehicles he's probably right.

Tom1200 said:

I was left thinking "dude have you ever driven a 100hp leaf sprung RWD car?" 

Case in point the Datsun; it is not uncommon that a set of bumps will unload the rear end, and the car will snap 45 degrees, opposite lock alone won't fix it fast enough because the steering is too slow, in fact loads of opposite lock will likely result in a tank slapper because you can't wind it back out fast enough. The fix is to pin the throttle and wait, once the rear suspension loads again it will snap back straight, when the car gets back to about 15 degrees you need to come out of the throttle, if the car starts to go back more than 15 degrees the other way.....pin the throttle. Basically you have to plan for spring wind up. Per the Nissan competition suspension manual there is no panhard bar. Note this situation seldom arises but when it does Lord help you if you try to fix it purely with opposite lock. Also note I once used this technique to get out trouble in a bone stock RX7.

So, while I understand I'm being a pedant (cause I am), I'm left with that uncomfortable feeling of being an amateur disagreeing with a professional who has way more talent and experience than I could ever hope to.......it's not going to make me change what I'm doing.

There will always be caveats to broad pieces of advice like this. But you're trying to say he's wrong, because of your experience with your car. It's really easy to pick a part a piece of advice, if you try to find one specific instance where it doesn't work.

I'm very much a novice racing driver and I only have experience with FR drivetrains. This raises a question:

If I've lost rear traction don't I want to reduce wheelspeed in relation to road speed in order to regain rear end traction?

When the rear end starts to come out I lift a little, let the rear hook back up, then smoothly apply power again.

Of course its a generalization, it all depends on what you are driving, where you came from and where you are hoping/wanting the car to go.

What you are "driving on" matters too (what is available to help/hurt you geographically, including traffic).

Each sitution has to be analyzed for the appropriate action.

I was told for years that you should aim for a wreck and by the time you get there it will be gone.  NOPE! That doesn't work.....

If power can't get you out of the trouble you are in, you're not driving aggressively enough.

Not knowing which article he wrote, I don't know the full story.  However, I think what may be missing is the question, what got you into trouble in the first place?  

Corner entry too hot? Adding throttle won't help.

Stabbed the throttle mid-corner at the limit of traction? Adding throttle won't help.

Too much rotation due to trail braking? Adding throttle MAY help. I entered turn 2 at  Grattan way too hot one time making an inside pass. Had to trail brake deep into the turn and the rear started to come around in my RX-8.  The only thing that saved me was getting on the gas to control the drift and opposite lock. Had I just steered, I would have spun. I have also had a handling issue on my Miata lately. I get some corner entry rotation but 3/4 of the way through the turn, it would start to slide the rear out. Only way to stay balanced was to keep on the throttle and balance the drift and counter steer. 

So maybe we're missing some context (link to original article?). I understand what he is saying that there may be no more grip to provide weight transfer, but sometimes getting off the throttle is worse.

In reply to Tom1200 :

You are right, he is wrong.  Ask sprint car drivers. 

Pobst tends to respond to YouTube comments in his material, maybe ask for clarification?  Who knows you may inspire him to demonstrate what he means since he's better at that anyway

This post really wasn't about right or wrong, just that I found myself disagreeing with a blanket statement, it was more me making fun of myself because I know what he said holds true but my pedantic brain can't let go of the fact that for my .001% situation it's not 100% true.

@nocones, his meaning was exactly as you are interpreting it; steady state cornering where the rear has exceeded the traction limits. if you already are at 100% adding throttle is going to result in the car likely going more sideways. The Datsun is so gutless that at 75mph if you get steady state oversteer booting the throttle will momentarily create more oversteer but then the car scrubs off so much speed so fast that it will snap straight again. It is by no means fast and one could can just as easily recover with steady state throttle......it takes longer but scrubs a lot less speed. If you are not comfortable with oversteer you will hate my Datsun.

Pobst was not talking about 20-50s Gran Prix cars that one rotated using power ala a sprint car.

So years ago I worked with a big name pro who was willing to discuss things with me on the condition that I never use his name. A friend mentioned my recovering the car on a particular section of track in the manner I originally described and even showed him so video. The look on his face was priceless, I described what I was doing and he laughed and said "that's why I'd refuse to drive one of those things".

Now if you drive my Formula 500 in the way you drive the Datsun............you'll have a huge crash in pretty short order.

frenchyd said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

You are right, he is wrong.  Ask sprint car drivers. 

Sprint cars on dirt or asphalt? Are you implying they would drive the car the same way on either surface?

Are you saying that a WoO driver on dirt drives the same as a high-downforce prototype on asphalt?

I read the article, it was in this month's SCCA newsletter. You really need to read the whole article because he covers many of the exceptions mentioned here. In short I think he's right with very few exceptions. He covers the difference between maintenance throttle and stabbing the throttle to "power out of trouble", which is important.  

To paraphrase for RWD car, if Trouble is terminal understeer, lift the throttle and move the weight forward. If Trouble is terminal oversteer/spin, you don't have rear traction anyway and additional throttle will just prolong the time it takes for the rear tires to regain traction. Basically, fix a spin with your hands and not your feet. 

accordionfolder said:

I'm not a huge fan of him, but I'm thinking something has probably been lost in translation there. On a slow day he's faster than 9/10ths of us in any of our own cars.

 

A friend of mine told me an experience he had many years ago. He had won his class at Solo Nationals. Pobst drove his Civic at the next event, had never been in his car, and was two seconds faster on a 45 second course.

Ignoring front wheel drive cars, where stand on it and steer like a madman is a perfectly acceptible way of dealing with oversteer, there is one place where stabbing the throttle won't fix your problem, but it can lessen the severity of the problem.  If you come out of turn 4 on a third mile oval, and you've been a bit optimistic about how far you can hang the back end out,  backing off the throttle will plant the nose in the outside wall right under the flag stand.  Stand on it, and you might just roll down the front straight backwards.  Even if you go too far around, it generally hurts less, and costs less, to back it into the inside wall.

Might be some personal experience talking there...the backwards part, not the outside wall part.  Yet.

Tom1200 said:

This post really wasn't about right or wrong, just that I found myself disagreeing with a blanket statement, it was more me making fun of myself because I know what he said holds true but my pedantic brain can't let go of the fact that for my .001% situation it's not 100% true.

@nocones, his meaning was exactly as you are interpreting it; steady state cornering where the rear has exceeded the traction limits. if you already are at 100% adding throttle is going to result in the car likely going more sideways. The Datsun is so gutless that at 75mph if you get steady state oversteer booting the throttle will momentarily create more oversteer but then the car scrubs off so much speed so fast that it will snap straight again. It is by no means fast and one could can just as easily recover with steady state throttle......it takes longer but scrubs a lot less speed. If you are not comfortable with oversteer you will hate my Datsun.

Pobst was not talking about 20-50s Gran Prix cars that one rotated using power ala a sprint car.

So years ago I worked with a big name pro who was willing to discuss things with me on the condition that I never use his name. A friend mentioned my recovering the car on a particular section of track in the manner I originally described and even showed him so video. The look on his face was priceless, I described what I was doing and he laughed and said "that's why I'd refuse to drive one of those things".

Now if you drive my Formula 500 in the way you drive the Datsun............you'll have a huge crash in pretty short order.

Not just an underpowered Datsun but my BlackJack.  Like a sprint car I steer with the throttle. 

@shinygroove I read the whole article and he is right, again my brain hung up on "but but but what about my exception that few if any club racers will ever experiance ?" hence the title of my post.

Again my intent was not to suggest Tom knows more than Randy, it was intended to be Tom's brain is stuck in gear.

 Now for a laugh; on the Datsun, in any given corner the car is at 3\4 throttle to start with so the difference between feathering and slapping the gas pedal to the floor is about 8 horsepower. So slapping the gas pedal to the floor in the Datsun is the equivalent of feathering the throttle in most other cars.

accordionfolder said:

I'm not a huge fan of him, but I'm thinking something has probably been lost in translation there. On a slow day he's faster than 9/10ths of us in any of our own cars.

 

99% of us.. 

He won his latest Solo National championship while sitting on his best run from day one that had a cone. He hadn't driven that car before the event. 

To Tom1200 original post..

As others said, you can't take a broad piece of advice and apply it to every situation. 

What works for driving technique for cars on a road course or autox is going to be different from a stage rally car or even a rallyx car. 

And people are mentioning sprint cars that spend virtually their entire life at some kind of slip angle. Totally different kind of driving style.. 

Pobst has raced production cars professionally so take everything he talks about and put a little bit of context on it.. totally makes sense.. if a car is getting upset by big changes in the racing surface.. that's not going to be a "normal" thing in my expectations of what you build a traditonal autox or road race car car to handle.