Pondering an off grid remote think pad

I was thinking about a helicopter too, I love spending other peoples money but I didn't know if jh would let me spend that much of his $ on day 1 of the planning!

I have no dog in the hunt in timber frame but what Svrex said made me think. In the  spring I designed a covered pool area for a customer. I thought it would look awesome in timber frame so I quoted it through Vermont Timber. The structure was 25' x 10'6". The quote for the frame only was $21k for the timber and $13k to install it. The tongue and groove to fill the roof was Quoted at $7.7k but they left it off the formal quote because "prices were so volatile that they were changing daily". I damn near fell over when I opened the quote. I had no doubt it would be amazing. $40k for a framed 250 square foot structure with no wall infills seemed excessive. 
I gave the plans and the quote to the customer, charged him half price for my work and told him to let me know if he wanted to go forward with it or if he wanted me to try something different. 

24x24 sounds awfully big for a simple unimproved cabin. The last shed I built is 12x12, and with full 8ft walls and about a 6/12 roof pitch (rafter framed) it totally felt roomy enough to live in. Plenty of vertical space to add a loft for sleeping arrangements.
I've pondered a cabin or tiny house constructed similarly, and thought a 12x16 footprint (12x12 enclosed with the other 4ft as covered porch) or 16x20 (16x16 enclosed with 4ft covered porch) would make a great cabin. 

Dig into the county code requirements before you get too invested. Even in the most lax counties around me, with some of the most rugged mountain properties (generally historic mining claims with nothing but a forest service trail as access) they won't allow a simple unimproved cabin build in this day and age. They want to see electrical, fresh water plumbing, waste water disposal, and heating all up to the same code that would apply to a real house in town. 

My father built a 16x16 with a full loft for us(3 person family) when I was young and we originally lived in an 11x11 log cabin with loft when we first moved to idaho. It's too small for just him and my mom when she was alive. They built on 3 times. People romanize tiny homes a lot but they require a much different lifestyle than most will want. Not saying jh36 won't want to but he should be really really sure if he wants that.

If you don't mind rustic and it's just a shell.....why not go full pioneer and build a log cabin in place from the trees there? You even have apparently tons of rock for foundation material. You could even go way way old school and thatch roof it.

I wouldn't recommend thatch roofs and log cabins aren't my thing but if you really want off grid pioneer....there it is and it's very doable.

In reply to newrider3 :

I agree with your comments about code enforcement, planning etc, but I couldn't disagree more regarding the size. 
 

24 x 24 is only 576 SF. That's a nice little cabin. Perhaps a little generous for only one person, but the OP has family who will share the space. There is no way I would go much smaller. 
 

Tiny houses are romanticized, but truly impractical. Especially for several people. 

SV reX said:

In reply to jh36 :

If you've read all those books, then you know who Tedd Benson is. I was hired by him at one point. 
 

Unless you are cutting in a computerized shop similar to his which is large enough to fully assembled the entire house, there is always going to be on-site fitting (which is really slow). Plus, timber frames are usually assembled on the ground as an entire bent (section all the way through the house), then raised as one entire piece. Even a small structure like you want to build will be way too heavy to lift without a LOT of help. 
 

But it's a cool idea. If you've got your heart set on it, I say go for it!  Just know it will take significantly more time than you think. 
 

To put it in perspective, back when stick built framers were framing for $3.50 per square foot (that's a LONG time ago!), the same framers were timber framing for $22 per square foot. That's pre-cut timbers, not site cut. 
 

7X labor is a good factor to work with. For a 24 x 24 simple structure, that may not matter. If you can precut the timbers, watch the weather, and get 20 friends to show up, you can probably raise it in a couple days. 
 

When you're ready, I'll volunteer!  (Serious offer)

That's incredible on several levels. Yes...The Timber Frame Home book has been much inspiration to me. Incredible that you worked with him. 
And your super incredible offer to help. That's amazing. 
So...I'm going to check off the technical boxes ..1- understand zoning rules. 
2-I will discuss with my architect friend. 

I honestly (naively) thought if I cut and built remotely, the erection process would be quicker than you e described, but my thoughts are based on NOTHING compared to your experience. 
 

First - what a way to start the new year! I am excited for you.

Random thoughts:

check out... https://www.diamondpiers.com/quick-guide-diy-homeowner

..These may be totally wrong if the land is ALL rock. Or they might be perfect if there is some dirt in a meadow on top of the mountain. 

I would not be surprised to learn the county has no building or zoning regulations on an old mine property.

You'll need an improved driveway but not one that's so nice it becomes an easy way to get in and steal your stuff. Consider a sturdy gate and trail cameras too.

Consider building a corrugated tin roof (open sided) shed to park stuff under. You can always use some shelter and it's a good way to test some construction techniques. Parking a camper under a tin roof is a good way to significantly extend its life expectancy. Add a gutter and a cistern/tank for fresh water.

I spent many weeks in Estes Park CO with my brother and 2 parents in a 16x24 rustic log cabin. The size was just fine for a getaway.

SV reX said:

Tiny houses are romanticized, but truly impractical. Especially for several people. 

+1 

...Same for sea container "houses". They're good for one thing and it isn't living inside.  

OHSCrifle said:

SV reX said:

Tiny houses are romanticized, but truly impractical. Especially for several people. 

+1 

...Same for sea container "houses". They're good for one thing and it isn't living inside.  

I agree on container houses, they are basically single wide trailers that you have to do all the work on. I will never understand how people like them and most people that do actually live in them hate them from my experience

In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :

Not to flounder this thread but I wouldn't really suggest a single container to live in. That's only 320 sq ft before you start subtracting for insulation. Other than offshore living quarters that's not awesome. I was thinking as a cantilever base that has dry storage, build on top. Most of the container houses that I thought were livable use containers and combined other elements. You tuber Andrew Camarata has a very impressive container castle. Things like that where people frame in an area with containers and maybe use them for bedrooms or cut large holes to make open spaces (and wreck the structural integrity). 
I have made 8 custom containers for equipment, think doors, windows, custom floors, removable roofs, removable ends, integrated hoists and things like that. You can do a silly amount of things with them and still take them down the road. 
Now back to jh36's deal. I am happy to start an extreme shipping container thread if there is interest. 

Why build anything? Maybe just make it Wanderlodge accessible?

In reply to NY Nick :

You kill it for me by citing a YouTuber, not a builder, engineer, or architect. 
 

There is no doubt there have been some amazing structures built with them. But they face HUGE challenges to overcome, and are usually very costly. 
 

They are built for clicks on YouTube, not for good design or low cost.

How do I know?  My boss built over 3000 structures with them. Shipped all over the world. Every one of them custom. For all kinds of applications- military, medical, institutional, sub stations, data comm buildings, etc. 
 

The bottom line?  They were used for modular spaces that needed to be shipped. THAT'S what they are designed for. That's what they are good for. 
 

Residential applications will ALWAYS be a compromise application. It's a contortion of what they are good at. 
 

But they sure look cool on YouTube. 

A second thought on the helicopter idea...

Build the whole thing at your shop.  Prep the site with concrete piers so you can bolt the timbers to them when the helo sets it down.

I'll be that guy in this thread.

Wife unit and I thought about this a couple years back and there were a couple problems that kept killing the idea:

1) E36 M3rats. I've spent a lot of time camping in some far away places and no matter how far away you go, you can see the mess that some people cause. These same people will see an unattended structure and won't be able to stop themselves from trashing it. If you can't be there most of the time, your place will end up getting broken into, trashed and all your stuff stolen. It's just not worth it unless you can haul a trailer up there and bring it back in the off season. No permanent structure for the E36 M3rats to destroy.

2) Insurance. Good luck insuring a place you don't live at.

That's all I got.

If you're prepared to deal with that stuff, sounds like a wonderful spot you have.

PunchyWrench - Ed Higginbotham said:

Why build anything? Maybe just make it Wanderlodge accessible?

Ha ha. Ok, you are going up with me next trip. The only way I think that would be possible would be with a helicopter capable  of a 30,000 lb deadlift. 

ShawnG said:

I'll be that guy in this thread.

Wife unit and I thought about this a couple years back and there were a couple problems that kept killing the idea:

1) E36 M3rats. I've spent a lot of time camping in some far away places and no matter how far away you go, you can see the mess that some people cause. These same people will see an unattended structure and won't be able to stop themselves from trashing it. If you can't be there most of the time, your place will end up getting broken into, trashed and all your stuff stolen. It's just not worth it unless you can haul a trailer up there and bring it back in the off season. No permanent structure for the E36 M3rats to destroy.

2) Insurance. Good luck insuring a place you don't live at.

That's all I got.

If you're prepared to deal with that stuff, sounds like a wonderful spot you have.

 

This is something I've thought about a lot and is probably the biggest concern that I haven't written out. I could see someone wanting to hang out for a while.  Here are some things I've thought on the subject.

1-I would treat it pretty much like a box of shelter and keep "stuff" to a min. 

2-I could lock it down pretty hard like a hurricane defense. 

3- Or, I could leave it open and avoid anyone smashing it to get in. 

All the other stuff....construction, logistics, time...I can reason out in my mind. This one does concern me. 
I'm not concerned with insurance and accept that I could lose it all. 
 

In reply to jh36 :

Baked goods. Seriously. 
 

Get to be friendly with your neighbors. You'd be shocked how good mountain folk are at protecting their neighbors. Even if you're a damned Yankee. 

In reply to SV reX :

I could not agree more. Literally everyone we have met there has been incredible.  The fellow with the adjacent property is a golden soul. Some distant relatives are not too far down the other side.  And I do think having a family history there helps a little. But that thought (vandalism) has certainly been my biggest argument against this idea when my wife has been talking me into this.

The fellow that lives in my late great-aunt's house is a dirt track racer too. Random but fun fact. I'm not sure where he runs but he and his wife are super nice. When I was poking around my childhood stomping grounds I introduced myself and we ended up talking and hanging out in his garage for over an hour. 
The root cellar I remembered was still in the side of the mountain with my father's baby hand prints in concrete still. That was cool. 

NY Nick said:

In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :

Not to flounder this thread but I wouldn't really suggest a single container to live in. That's only 320 sq ft before you start subtracting for insulation. Other than offshore living quarters that's not awesome. I was thinking as a cantilever base that has dry storage, build on top. Most of the container houses that I thought were livable use containers and combined other elements. You tuber Andrew Camarata has a very impressive container castle. Things like that where people frame in an area with containers and maybe use them for bedrooms or cut large holes to make open spaces (and wreck the structural integrity). 
I have made 8 custom containers for equipment, think doors, windows, custom floors, removable roofs, removable ends, integrated hoists and things like that. You can do a silly amount of things with them and still take them down the road. 
Now back to jh36's deal. I am happy to start an extreme shipping container thread if there is interest. 

I wasn't recommending just a single to live in, or any at all.

My point is for all the fanfare they get they are basically a stripped single wide trailer without anything in them. 

Now if you want them mobile and shippable they are great.....but otherwise they are eclipsed by a single wide trailer

Ok. I slept on it. It still seems like a good idea. 
I need to get back up there soon...I will try and do that in January, weather permitting. 
 

On my last trip, I pretty much had the boundaries figured out but I want to go through that process again plus talk to the adjoining  property owners. 
 

The spot I like most is the picture I posted.  It is one giant slab of rock from where she (my wife) was standing to "rock on rock".  The incline is a bit steeper than it looks... I was skating down to boulders. This may come down to code (if there is one) but I've been thinking about the piers. The back of the cabin will be slightly raised off the ground. The front will be higher. Digging footings, piers and such is not going to be a thing with the granite. I've been looking at various online ways to anchor and I like this method. 
Drill into the rock and sink rods. Form a concrete pier and set a saddle to carry the deck. 
 

I'm thinking I would build a conventional deck/platform, then set my timber frame on it.  
 

This seems like a fairly common way to deal with keeping the shiny side up, but want to know better/easier/safer methods. 

jh36 said:

Ok. I slept on it. It still seems like a good idea. 
I need to get back up there soon...I will try and do that in January, weather permitting. 
 

On my last trip, I pretty much had the boundaries figured out but I want to go through that process again plus talk to the adjoins property owners. 
 

The spot I like most is the picture I posted.  It is one giant slab of rock from where she (my wife) was standing to "rock on rock".  The incline is a bit steeper than it looks... I was skating down to boulders. This may come down to code (if there is one) but I've been thinking about the piers. The back of the cabin will be slightly raised off the ground. The front will be higher. Digging footings, piers and such is not going to be a thing with the granite. I've been looking at various online ways to anchor and I like this method. 
Drill into the rock and sink rods. Form a concrete pier and set a saddle to carry the deck. 
 

I'm thinking I would build a conventional deck/platform, then set my timber frame on it.  
 

This seems like a fairly common way to deal with keeping the shiny side up, but want to know better/easier/safer methods. 

That's a fairly standard practice, I mentioned it in my first post. I would get an engineer to look at it if the rock was at all sketchy.

You could also blast a hole and fill it in but the above idea is better.

One VERY important point.  Deeded or titled access to your property.  An easement can be troublesome.  Make sure you have unlimited access to the property.  I'm running into a problem now with this, while looking to purchase a 103 acre property that is land locked.  It has to do with an abandoned town road.  It is requiring a load of legal mumbo jumbo.

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

I've lived offgrid for decades, built my own house too and work in construction, primarily concrere. This is a cool idea all around.

No electricity isn't something I'd recommend, it sounds cool in theory but practically electricity is very handy. You can always have a small solar system and never use it if you want.

Yes...I should have said, no on-grid power.  I am researching solar and would also consider a small quiet Honda genny for necessities .  

I'd probably point you more towards standard framing than timber frame because it's easier and faster, being 8 hours away and always working means timber frame progress could be glacial. I do get the idea behind your wants though.

Timber framing is a box I have wanted to check for four decades.  If I don't do it now, it won't be done.  Unchecked boxes worry me.

Concrete on rock is simple: pound it down to solid rock that will never move and pin the foundation to it if on a hillside.If it's not on a hillside it gets a lot easier too. You will probably want various engineers to look at the site if it's on sketchy rock though. Far enough away from a ledge and you might be able to get away with a house on skids with no foundation for something that small. Upside too is it requires nothing permit wise in a lot of the country but check where you are at.

By pinning, would you use something like the method I posted above?

In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :

Sorry...you wrote while I slowly typed. 

ShawnG said:

1) E36 M3rats. I've spent a lot of time camping in some far away places and no matter how far away you go, you can see the mess that some people cause. These same people will see an unattended structure and won't be able to stop themselves from trashing it. If you can't be there most of the time, your place will end up getting broken into, trashed and all your stuff stolen. It's just not worth it unless you can haul a trailer up there and bring it back in the off season. No permanent structure for the E36 M3rats to destroy.

 

 

Absolutely this. A few years ago I bought a unique property. Corner lot with a poured driveway and slab, gorgeous lake view. It was at the intersection of two heavily trafficked roads, in full view of multiple neighbors and about 15 minutes away. The number of times I went over to work on the property and found people parking their boats or cars in my driveway was staggering. Just as shocking, both police and tow companies absolutely refused to come out and tow anything. One time I came out to find a cop parked under my oak tree asleep in his cruiser. 

People's disrespect for private property is staggering. First thing I would build is a sturdy fence.