Possible Dealership Price Gouging?

So a friend of mine has a 2008 Subaru Legacy. She took it in to the dealership yesterday because the check engine light had come on and it was running a bit rough. They didn't look at it for very long, and came back with a $1,600 estimate to replace the MAF sensor, O2 sensor, and catalytic converter.

Here's my question: If the MAF was malfunctioning, couldn't it cause a rich condition, and cause a catalytic converter inefficiency and an O2 sensor out of range code? Wouldn't it make more sense to change the MAF and see if the other codes are effected? Is it even possible to tell if the catalytic converter is bad if something else is causing it to not run properly in the first place?

She called me freaking out, and didn't have the money to do they job even if she wanted to, so I told her to just have them replace the MAF and go from there.

Thoughts?

Sounds like the parts shotgun approach to me.

ahhh, the good ol parts cannon.

Its hard to know what they did or why, but I do know there is at least one economic driver for dealerships to just read the codes and then offer to replace everything on the list - time.

EDIT - looks like bgkast beat me to the punch.

Sounds like a plan, worst case scenario the car goes right back in to get the rest done, best case scenario it solves the other two problems instantly.

And unless the cat is visibly clogged or fouled, yeah I don't know how they can tell it's bad if the engine's not running properly.

The price sounds right for all the parts they want to throw at it. I just doubt it needs all those parts. I think you did the right thing.

I thought I needed a throttle position sensor for a 2005 and the part alone was $600.

Oh my goodness! You don't actually think that one of our respected automobile dealers would take advantage of a customer, do you? For heavens sake! Certainly automotive dealers are very concerned about preserving their excellent reputation for providing excellent parts and service prices to their fine customers.

Translation: Yeah, they are screwing her like they screw the rest of the uniformed masses who have the misfortune of showing up there. Do you think they told her that $1,600 is 23% of the Blue Book value of the car?

I wouldn't have even had them replace the MAF. I'd buy a $5 can of cleaner and start there. That and a code read and reset, which many parts stores will do for free. Especially if you buy the can of MAF cleaner from them at the same time.

In reply to 16vCorey:

Sure enough, it'll get fixed and then the head gaskets will blow....

GameboyRMH wrote: Sounds like a plan, worst case scenario the car goes right back in to get the rest done, best case scenario it solves the other two problems instantly. And unless the cat is visibly clogged or fouled, yeah I don't know how they can tell it's bad if the engine's not running properly.

That's exactly what I thought, but just curious if I was missing something. She said they looked at it for maybe 20 minutes before she go the estimate, so I'm positive they didn't drop the exhaust and physically inspect the cats.

neon4891 wrote: The price sounds right for all the parts they want to throw at it. I just doubt it needs all those parts. I think you did the right thing.

That's almost exactly what I told her. She messaged me told me what they wanted to replace and asked if the price was out of line. I told her that it sounded like a reasonable price for what they wanted to do, but I really didn't think there was anyway they could know that all three parts were bad in 20 minutes, and that a bad MAF could cause codes for the other two. Of course the dealership tried really, REALLY hard to talk her into just doing it all when she told them to just change the MAF.

Take it to different dealer or independent for 2nd opinion.

agree with the above. Clean the MAF, it's pretty easy to get at. Reset the codes. The cat efficiency code happens A LOT. Clean the MAF, buy some catylist cleaner and run per the instructions. Reset the code, and see what comes back. Then go from there.

nocones wrote: Take it to different dealer or independent for 2nd opinion.

I agree.

Isn't there a reputable independent shop nearby? If so, that might be a good source as well. Right after you do the $5 clean job & scrub the failure history of course.

AaronBalto wrote: Oh my goodness! You don't actually think that one of our respected automobile dealers would take advantage of a customer, do you? For heavens sake! Certainly automotive dealers are very concerned about preserving their excellent reputation for providing excellent parts and service prices to their fine customers. Translation: Yeah, they are screwing her like they screw the rest of the uniformed masses who have the misfortune of showing up there. Do you think they told her that $1,600 is 23% of the Blue Book value of the car?

^^^ This exactly. I sort of chuckled when I read the thread headline with the word "possible" in it referring to dealers. Does a bear go potty in the woods??

They're not called STEALERSHIPS for nothing!

I hate to defend a dealership, but if they change ALL those items, chances are the problem will be solved and the customer does not come back angry.

My mechanic will tackle parts replacement in sequential order. His shop is always busy. I'm a happy customer.

You gave your friend the right advise.

I don't work in the industry but I bet the dealers get dinged pretty hard on customer satisfaction surveys for rework. Most people would rather "do it once, do it right" than go through multiple visits for "the same problem", especially if the dealer 20+ miles away from home.

Corey's approach is perfectly reasonable if his friend is prepared for the potential of multiple visits & extra labor costs. The dealer did nothing wrong, it seems to be standard practice to replace any component/assembly flagged by the ECU code vs piece-meal solutions. A standard that probably developed from customers complaining of half-baked repairs on their satisfaction surveys.

See this is why I'm the kind of person who wouldn't buy a new car, I'd be a lot more pissed at paying over a grand for no reason than not having a car fixed with a single, definitive shotgun-blast of parts.

But if it was a new car, I wouldn't care because it's under warranty. We just had that with my wives car. They came back with a shotgun list of parts. I asked them, is it covered under warranty, They said yes so I said change what ever you want as long as it's not a bill to me.

A bad O2 sensor can cause a rich condition

Good approach, don't let a dealer make you think you need to do everything, especially the cat.

The unfortunate thing is I have seen this before. Here's the deal: the PCM knows how much air comes in based on what the MAF tells it. From that, it calculates what the catalyst should show at both the upstream and downstream O2 sensors. So a MAF that's ALMOST out of range can cause a catalyst code to be set yet not set a MAF code OR a bad catalyst can do it OR even a bad O2 sensor, and I've seen O2's that were bad set a cat code, not set an O2 code yet it's the O2 that's bad.

The killer: since it's a cat code but typically back pressure tests show it's flowing well indicating it isn't clogged you don't know for sure until parts get replaced. What the techs and I recommended at the Dodge place: 1) clean the MAF, replace the O2's, clear the codes and keep your fingers crossed. 2) If the cat code comes back, replace the MAF, clear the codes, cross the fingers. If it comes back again, replace the catalyst (notice recommendations go from cheapest to most expensive). A lot of people don't want to hear that, they say 'well tell me which one is really bad'. Um, not possible (go into explanation again) then 'I wanna talk to the service manager!'. Okey dokey, he will tell you the same thing.

OBTW: in many cases the O2's will heat seize to the pipe. If they are and the threads in the cat are damaged beyond repair (not common but it can happen) there's no real choice but to replace the cat anyway.

Trivia: GM had a bulletin on this. It seems that the first thing the tech should do is look at the air filter. If it's a cheapo, fibers will get sucked off the element and contaminate the MAF. Of particular interest was K&N or other oiled media filters, overoiling could contaminate the MAF but not set a MAF code. That was worst on the old 'hot wire' system MAF's but newer cars will do the same thing.

Error codes are clues, not answers. Any mechanic that just wants to replace parts associated with the codes is not diagnosing the problem. They are guessing at best. The first think I would check would be the hose between the MAF and the throttle body for cracks. Check the wires to the MAF. Clean the MAF. I wouldn't touch the cat until after the car was running properly, unless it was physically damaged. Also check the emissions warranty. It is usually much longer than the power train.

Exactly. When a tech comes to me and says 'there are several possible causes for this, we need to go step by step' I'm more inclined to believe him than the guy who 'shotguns' it or worse shows up with only the catalyst on the estimate. Alarm bells start ringing then...

About emissions warranty, in California and New York it's 7 years 70,000 miles. I want to say that a couple of other states (possibly New Jersey and Massachussets)were getting ready to adopt that same thing. Federal emissions warranty (which does NOT apply in Cali or NY) is 8 years/80,000 miles. The Fed warranty covers ONLY the catalytic converter and PCM.

The 7/70 Cali warranty includes other parts too, I don't know what all they are since I've never had to handle a Cali claim.

OBTW, a MAF can set different codes associated only with it, but the most common is P0101, air flow meter circuit range/performance. If the tech got that code along with the catalyst (most likely P0420, catalyst efficiency) the very first place to look is the intake air tubing and associated vacuum lines.