Possible title issue

Hey guys,

Some of you may remember me asking if I should trade my RX-4 for a sweet 77 RX-3 SP earlier this month. Well I am 95% done with the whole transaction as I have secured the money,secured a trailer,and may be headed down to CT this weekend to pick up the car,but I may have an issue,and wonder what you guys think.

The seller told me he has a clear title,but today while finalizing some details I asked about it again,and he said he has the title from WA,not CT,and it is in the guys name who he bought the car from 5+ years ago,so in other words he doesn't have a title for the car in his name. I am not sure this is a major issue,but I am worried as it is a big investment on my part with my trade,and the cash. It sure would suck to get the car back to MA,and find the tough to deal with MA DMV won't title or register the car in my name. The seller has restored the car,and drives it around on a repair plate from the body shop that he works at,so he has never registered it or titled it in his name(fringe benefit of working at the body shop I guess).

What do you guys think? Is there a way I can cover myself so that I can get my money back in case I can't get this car titled in my name? Could I pay with a check that somehow isn't good until I find out of the car is titleable in my state? Maybe an escrow account of some sort? I am guessing cash is a bad idea,but the seller would rather that,but isn't pushing it hard. Any help would be appreciated.

Chris

If the sellers name never appears on the title, and there is no stolen vehicle report on it, as far as your states MVA is concerned, you're buying it from the earlier guy in Washington state.

Will you have any trouble because of the date being many years ago? Dunno, that's your own states laws. Here, it's a non issue. Don't know about MA.

BUT... if the title is assigned in any way to the guy in CT who has it now, you're going to at least have to pay the taxes and title fees to run it through him. Some states have titles that allow for multiple transfers of ownership to take place on them (PA for example). Which can make transferring that title to you in another state (MD for example) quite entertaining.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be asking for a faxed copy of both sides of the title, and proceed with a great deal of caution. You might very well want to draw up a contract whereby he takes it back at full price if you cannot get it titled into your name in your state.

I know in MA you are required to title a vehicle within 10 days of buying it,and in this case I am not sure but I think the title is probably dated for 5+ years ago,and therefore I may be subject to some sort of penalty as it would look like I bought it back on that date,and not the current year,and month. This could get expensive I suppose. Maybe I should ask a registry agent what the penalty fees if any would be. I don't want or need this hassle if there is any in getting thecar titled,and registered in my name.

I went through some trouble years ago when buying my REPU which came from GA which doesn't issue titles for cars as old as it was at the time. I had to have a constabel or police officer come by to verify the VIn on the vehicle in three places,and jump through a few other hoops to get it titled,but it wasn't too bad. This could be worse I am afraid.

Chris

Could you have him pay and get a new title in his name? $100?

Contact his state too. I sold a truck and hadn't even had time to process the title and the new owner and I went to the Illinois DMV. I paid my part and signed "power of attorney" paperwork and he paid his title money all on the spot in one quick deal. He walked out as owner.

All the state wanted was both our piles of cash.

On an unrelated note. Hey Foxtrapper,are you ever in the Hagerstown,MD area? I was wondering if you could look at a car for me if this all falls through with the RX-3. It is a white 09 RX-8 at Sharrett Mazda in Hagerstown,MD. It looks like it is about an hour from where you live,and if you ever get out that way I would love for you to have a look at the car for me.

I suppose he could get it titled in his name easy enough,but he will most likely have to pay a title fee(in MA it is $50),and sales tax on the value of the vehicle,or what he paid for it(in MA you pay tax on the value of the car according to Kelly or some other source) which could be a few hundred dollars all together. Not the end of the world,but maybe something he doesn;t want to lay cash out on,but it sure would make my life easier. Maybe Woody could tell me what CT title fees,and such are.

CT doesn't issue titles for cars older than 1983. I'm not sure how that effects cars that are sold to other states. I would suspect that if the car has a current CT registration, than it wouldn't be an issue when you bring it home. People slam the DMV all the time, but remember they probably see almost every registration situation every day so they can most likely get you through it.

You can find CT title stuff here:

http://www.ct.gov/dmv/taxonomy/taxonomy.asp?DLN=30151&dmvNav=|30151|&dmvPNavCtr=|#30350

That's just the thing though Woody the car has no current CT registration as the seller only uses his body shop repair plate when he drives the car,so it has never had a CT registration.

Chris

Make the seller clean up the title issue to present you with a clean title. That is what you both agreed your transaction would entail. Also, it I bet it is much easier for him to straighten out title at his end than for you to straighten it out.

Maybe agree to a 50/50 split of his costs to do so.

If he stated up front that he had clean title, it shouldn't become your problem that he doesn't. And it will be more difficult for you to clean it up than fir him to.

David

Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!

That's all I'm sayin.....

Deals like this make me really nervous. After money is transferred you are the only one responsible to deal with the fallout, fees, penalties, taxes, whatever.

Mazda605,

I work in Hagerstown and could look at the RX8 for if you want. I had a body and race prep shop for 30+ years, so I think I'm qualified. Let me know.

Don

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't MA law state that cars older than 1980 do not need a title?

I'd be calling the BMV/DMV. They should be able to give you a straight answer pretty quick. Are they open there on saturday mornings like they are here?

is the title in the name of the guy he got it from, or is it in the name of the guy that the guy he got it from got it from?

follow that?

in other words, did anyone anywhere along the line fill in the "buyer" section of the title and not transfer it? if so, was it the guy you are getting it from, or the guy that he got it from?

if the guy you are getting it from put his name on it but never transferred it, then it's easy- he transfers the title and then sells the car to you. you might be able to expedite it like i had to do with my Camaro about a month ago- the guy i got it from was going to put it in his moms name, but never transferred it after she filled the title out. so i had to transfer it to her first. i paid an extra $20 fee to expedite the process- it normally takes 6-8 weeks for the state to have their laser printer print up a title, but it got back to her in 2 days. i was impressed. then i just had to get the title from her and transfer it into my name. i wound up paying an extra $50 to transfer the title since i had to do it twice, but that was more than offset by the $150 he took off the price of the car when i let him keep the awesome wagon wheels that were on it when i bought it..

Rex Seven all cars in MA need titles as far as I know. my 74 REPU,and RX-4 both have titles. I am not sure what if anything aside from the seller in WA signing the title(WA title),and dating it. I don't think the current owners name appears anywhere on any title for the car,and he has never registered it as far as I know,so as far as CT DMV knows this car doesn't exist in their system.

I spoke with my insurance agent,and he knows MA RMV inside out. He says that with the way the title is now it looks like I would be buying the car from the guy in WA,and the dating of the title would mean I would be subject to fines for not titling the car within 10 days of buying it which if you follow me would technically be 5+ years ago according to the title. The MA RMV would want penalties for the last 5+ years,sales tax for the value now,and most likely excise tax for those years as well.

If the seller in CT registered it(can't title it as CT doesn't issue titles for cars older than 83) then I can show MA RMV that he is the legal owner,and that I bought it from him recently.

I know,confusing right? I am not sure it is worth the hassle,but I really want the car. Maybe I can get the seller to work with me,but as it is now I don't want to buy it,and be stuck paying penalties on it just to get it titled,and registered in MA if that will even happen at all.

Chris

IIRC this was a motivated seller. Time to haggle a few grand off the price

If he's motivated he might be motivated enough to register it?

Just sayin'.

So see if you can get the seller to officially register it in CT, then transfer it to you. If you really want the car that badly, offer to pay for his registration. It sounds like it would be a whole lot cheaper to do that than to pay 5 years worth of penalties you don't deserve.

A while back, when I lived in MA, a friend from NH gave me his dead motorcycle. He didn't have a title since NH didn't require it. It had been off the road for years, but he registered it for the sole purpose of creating a paper trail that would allow me to register and title the bike in MA. It worked perfectly - I had no trouble at all putting the bike on the road that way.

Mazdax605 wrote: the seller only uses his body shop repair plate when he drives the car,so it has never had a CT registration.

I've been both a Connecticut and a Massachusetts dealer and shop owner. In CT, in order to get dealer or repair plates, one must first obtain a 'sales and use' license from the DMV. This license allows one to resell motor vehicles without titling them or paying tax on them. A dealer's license lets you do this an unlimited number of times. A repair license has some restrictions, but it functions much like a dealer's license.

If the seller has repair plates, he can transfer the title to his business, then from the business to you. You will need a little green form called a Q1 (looks like the back of a title). On it, he will have to fill in his dealer/repair license number (not his plate number!) It will be obvious where this number goes.

Then, for Massachusetts, you will need an 'RMV-1' form. On this form, there will be a place on the right, above the sale price info, for the seller's Tax ID number. With his Tax ID number filled in, you will pay MA sales tax only on the purchase price.

Both the Q1 and the RMV-1 are free of charge from the DMV (Q1 from a CT DMV, RMV-1 from a MA RMV).

Feel free to PM me if you have more specific questions. Good luck!

This one is real simple. The seller has to present you with a clean title in his name or the deal is off. I don't think you have much choice. He told you he had a clean title and those are the terms under which you made the deal. You now find out he does not have a clean title. Make him fix it. If he balks and you still want the car, then yes, start cutting a few grand off the price to cover all the possible E36 M3 you'll go through.

I'd walk if he doesn't fix the title.

Update:

Seller dug out the WA title,and checked it out. Turns out it ISN'T dated from when WA seller sold it to CT owner(seller). This may make things real easy as now it just looks like I bought it from WA title holder,and the date can be filled out by me. He text messaged me a few pics of the title,and it appears it is clean where the date is,but I am hoping I can get him to fax me a copy tomorrow(if I can find a fax machine) so I can see it clearer than a crappy cell phone pic. Seller says there is a bill of sale on bottom of title as well,and it only has WA sellers name,and signature,no date,mileage,or sale price.Wish me luck.

Chris

as long as the buyer (person you are buying it from) did NOT sign the title, what is known as an open title (and illegal in most states), you transfer it straight into your name. If it is signed by both buyer and seller, then it has to be transfered into the buyers name and then into your name.
Call your DMV and explain to them the WHOLE situation and they will tell you how to handle it. I am dealing with a similar scenario now on my S13 now. Nothing that some paperwork and money won't fix.

I got a faxed copy of the title about an hour ago,and it appears to not be dated at all,and not only is the WA owners name the only thing on it,but even the mileage,and other info isn't filled out so it looks pretty good. I plan on bringing it by my insurance guys place tomorrow to have him give it a once over,and if he says it is legit I think I will be doing the deal.

It's obvious the original seller (WA) was duped using the standard tax avoidance practice, just have the seller sign the title/bill of sale and tell him you'll fill in the rest because you might be registering it in your wife, mother, father,etc name. This way you can resell the car for a supposed friend/relative with no tax liabilty on your part or have a paper trail through your name.

I wouldn't say the seller has been "duped." Yes, it's illegal, but it's quite common.

In MO, until recenctly people did this all the time. People still do it...but I won't do it anymore (as a seller). If a seller will leave an open title for me, I'll take it every time.

Now Missouri has a "notice of sale" that comes attached to the title. The SELLER fills this out and sends it in. This is pretty much putting an end to "open titles." Now (with the "notice of sale") they actually have a means of enforcing the law.

I had a guy almost not make a trade with me because I said I had to sign the title over to him. He wanted it left open.

Clem