Rallycross Tire Choice - 2022 Season Discussion.

dps214 said:

I guess I assumed it was a rear that debeaded given the circumstance, but either way he was basically perpendicular to the direction of travel when it happened and bad things are going to happen in that situation regardless.

I mean with snow tires we've run pressures in the teens (in mud, to be fair) with 205s on a basically 300lb car and never had any issues. Normal pressures were low-mid 20s most of the time. We'll see how it goes with awd...if there's ever an event that doesn't conflict with other schedules. So far we're 1 of 3 on being available for events since we got the car.

I can honestly say that in 10 years of doing this and running in RWD classes, I can only think of one single instance of ever seeing someone debead a rear tire on a RWD car. And that one person was Pete, as I recall. 

I've seen it at least twice in the last year. Same person, same car, not sure if it was the same tires...I don't really know how he did it either. In my mind I'd think it's more likely on the rear of a rwd car (but still pretty difficult) but I'm sure it's not quite as simple of a concept as I'm making it.

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :

The tire felt funny at the starting line, so it was kind of an induced debead.  185/65-15 Altimax Arctics in a course that was like driving in train tracks, riding the grooves to carry the cornering forces, so it probably just rammed a bunch of dirt in the bead on the previous run.  That was the first time I ever did it, ever.

I later debeaded a rally tire on the front.  Understeer is faster  This doesn't mean the tail isn't out, it just means the front tires are doing the majority of the cornering.

I personally still think the SCCA debead rules giving re-runs is BS. Can't think of an other motorsport (rally included) where you get to re-run (essentially rewarded since you get to see the course an extra time) for not driving to the conditions.

I know the "intent" is to slow people down if they debead and avoid rollovers, but as we all know, most drivers who debead either 1) don't realize it immediately and keep pushing anyways or 2) dig in at the point of debead and roll anyhow (ahem Mike Golden).  I've seen so many drivers come off course with a debead (not red-flagged) and not even know it had happened. 

It also encourages people to drop pressures really low since who cares if you debead? I'll admit, I've dropped to 14-15psi on late runs trying to get a bit of extra grip (on rally gravels), since there's no penalty. 

I've always kind of felt the same but could never tell how much of it was just a side effect of running rwd and not really needing to worry about debeads anyway. It's been a while since I've run with them but I think Detroit doesn't use that rule? The Nationals incident was weird because the event staff was somehow talked into letting him take a rerun in a borrowed car which is definitely not what the rules say. But then again nationals has a pretty good track record of questionable officiating so it's not too surprising. Let's just hope that precedent wasn't set too strongly.

Not that I follow nationals too closely, but since the person in question was from DC I heard a bit more and I *think* he was  allowed to take the re-run because of the debead FIRST and since the car was "broken" AFTER the run was officially "dead" due to the debead (if only a split-second after), then he's allowed to change to another car within class due to a "mechanical issue."

Or that's how I read it. I still think it's ridiculous, but I'm also happy one of our guys was able to podium (and it makes me feel good since he very rarely beats me in local competition lol). 

irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:

Not that I follow nationals too closely, but since the person in question was from DC I heard a bit more and I *think* he was  allowed to take the re-run because of the debead FIRST and since the car was "broken" AFTER the run was officially "dead" due to the debead (if only a split-second after), then he's allowed to change to another car within class due to a "mechanical issue."

Or that's how I read it. I still think it's ridiculous, but I'm also happy one of our guys was able to podium (and it makes me feel good since he very rarely beats me in local competition lol). 

Yeah I heard that explanation and it's better but that's still not how the rules are written. Not completing a run due to mechanical issue is a DNF, debead allowance says be given a red flag and continue though the course at slow speed then repair the tire. Neither of those happened.

Also fun fact since I went through the rules to verify my understanding, there's no specific allowance for changing cars due to mechanical issues like there is in autocross, just a one liner about car/number changes after competition starts having to go to the chief steward. But no elaboration on allowable reasons for such requests.

The course was also changed after the roll and since not all the MR drivers had run they had to rerun all MR drivers.

irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:

It also encourages people to drop pressures really low since who cares if you debead? I'll admit, I've dropped to 14-15psi on late runs trying to get a bit of extra grip (on rally gravels), since there's no penalty. 

In the past, the region I've run with has enforced a minimum tire pressure for anyone not on rally tires to keep debeads to a minimum.  No minimum for rally tires though, but I've never known of someone debeading one at one of their events.  At one point, for street tires they were pushing for 40 psi or maximum rating of the tire, whichever was lower.  I think I only ran the Jeep tires that high once though, as it led to very poor grip in the rear (typically I was high 30s - 40 front, low 30s rear, which is basically street pressure). 

moxnix said:

The course was also changed after the roll and since not all the MR drivers had run they had to rerun all MR drivers.

It's been a minute and I didn't really care that much at the time, but I think it was explained to me that was the key in that situation.  Since that run was invalidated for the whole group, the debead/mechanical never happened.  It wasn't switching cars because of a debead to get your re-run, it was just a mechanical failure that happened between runs so the driver swapped cars.

IIRC the switch rule is that a driver may switch to another class legal car once per day, for any reason.  Meaning you cannot finish your morning runs in another car, fix your junk or wait for the course to dry out during lunch break, and do afternoon runs in your own car again, or switch to a third car.

The debead rerun rule is kinda BS too, IMO, but I believe it was instated after a Nationals where literally ten or twelve people in a row debeaded at one particular corner, that they didn't want to change mid run so they wouldn't have to rerun everyone.  (NO it was not 2014  ) The run was scrubbed, but the idea is that if the course was the cause of a debead, the driver should not be penalized for it, so should be allowed a rerun.

Are MaxSports not available anymore? Looks like they are sold out on their website and DemonTweeks is the only other source.

https://maxsportamericas.com/products/rb1f

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/us/maxsport-rb1-rally-tyre-247187/

Considering getting a set of 14" Alpha Eurocross for the rusty supercharged Miata for this season, seems to be the hot ticket in Detroit region since Ben Howe started selling them as a distributor.  Even in medium compound they are softer than winter tires, but they lugs do seem to get chunked quite quickly depending on the weight and power of the car.

https://kcracingstore.com/

I tried to order some tyres from Demon Tweeks and got a FU notice that shipping was suspended and to call a (UK) number for assistance.

Is why I bought out RM's stock of 13" Black Rockets in a certain model.  It was all I could get and they gave me a discount to buy five instead of just four.

Honestly, I'd go with the Alphas because Ben's a great guy and it is awesome what he is doing to bring rally tires to the US.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

I tried to order some tyres from Demon Tweeks and got a FU notice that shipping was suspended and to call a (UK) number for assistance.

Is why I bought out RM's stock of 13" Black Rockets in a certain model.  It was all I could get and they gave me a discount to buy five instead of just four.

Honestly, I'd go with the Alphas because Ben's a great guy and it is awesome what he is doing to bring rally tires to the US.

For sure, Ben is a huge asset to the rallycross community, and of course a standup guy!  I think a set of eurocross are in my future, 165/70r14 should do nicely with the multispoke NA wheels.

So I got a set of DMack Grippas with the purchase of my most recent rally car. I don't know how old they are but I do know that one of them was given to me ballooned up. I'm considering running two of them upfront for when its excessively slick and soft. My car is very light (about 2200lbs) and FWD. Should I be worried about these tires? Anything I should do or shouldn't do? 

The others look to be in great condition. But again... I'm not a tire expert and I'm definitely not a gravel tire expert. 

Look for a date code. Given that Grippas were popular a long time ago in tire years, I would not use them.

those must be really old, or stored in freezing temps. I had 4-5 sets of those tires over the years and never had any problems with them. I think they've been out of production for at least 3-4 years at this point, but they were a good pattern for grass rallyx, IMO. 

Er... My rally tires get freezing temps every winter, because my storage is unheated, and I have even driven on them in subfreezing temps...

My tires are also all at least 8 years old, for the 15" ones anyway.

I have too, but if you leave them in actual ice (like it freezes around the tread) they can delaminate like that. Ask me how I know ;)

The tire question (above) has been answered... These tires are super old and shouldn't be run. Which is a bummer. But man are these gravel tires heavy. I mean HEAVY. Currently, the rallyX we are doing is as another guy explained it "RallyX Plus." Honestly what we do at The FIRM is closer to a true rally sprint than your typical scca rallyX. We have seen 80mph at times and I'm not going to risk it with these tires. I have run a lot of different tires over the years but I always love to get feedback from other drives on what works well for them. Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) suggested a tire I found very interesting. The  Kumho Solus Ha31. These are a Performance All Season tire. Our surfaces are super diverse out at the firm. There isn't a Perfect tire and frankly, it's best to have a few different tire options depending on the course they lay out. The tires were delivered yesterday and look great. I'm pretty excited. The grooves are deep, the sipes aren't all the way through, and the compound is pretty soft. The thing I'm the most excited about is that the sidewall is VERY thick and firm. Much beefier than my Winterforces. They were $265 shipped to my front door. I plan to get a set of Falken Azenis still too as I have always felt those could be fast on some of the layouts at the firm. I'll report back on this soon. 

snicker.  I have some tires that I still run that were likely produced when there was still a wall between the two Berlins.

In reply to wae :

Hmmm. Well maybe ill try them at my "test facility" aka the wildlife management area down the road from me haha. I just don't want to risk a DNF due to the tires. 

Very interested on the report of those Kumhos, the tread looks promising!  With some grooving they might even work well in grass and mud.

Are those kumhos an outgoing model or just out of stock? Tire rack doesn't list them and the other places that sell them only have a few uncommon sizes available. A similar tire I've been curious about for a while is the Michelin crossclimate. Similar tread pattern and pretty good winter driving performance supposedly. I'd be inclined to expect the Michelin to be better, but the downside is they're certainly not cheap.

In reply to dps214 :

That's a great question. I'm not 100% sure about that. I found mine on ebay. They seem to have a ton on there. I actually just ordered a second set of 175/65/14's 

I have seen those Michelin too. But like you, I noticed they were super expensive.