Restomodding Principles Applied To A Functional Truck?

Related to questions I've been asking about RV bits, I'm trying to make sense of some of the options available for the stupid, stupid desire to have a truck that is both functional and cool. We've had lots of discussions of how to make cars work better with the rejiggering of every major system and structure, but what if you're trying to use that same approach to just have a truck that works well as a truck but isn't, well, just another truck?

By "functional" I mean that it should be reliable, drive well without any bad habits, have good capability for hauling and towing, and ideally not be a worst case scenario every time you go to the gas station.

"Cool" takes many forms. Most of them involve vehicles old enough that they don't do the "functional" thing as well as more modern versions of the same vehicle.

I think we're sort of looking at two different discussions, closely related:

1. What kind of vehicle do you start with?
2. What can you do to make it work better?

For question 1, I guess I'm wondering about starting with...

1. A 3/4 ton or 1-ton van or pickup
2. An old medium duty truck (a la Ferdinand)
3. Some rad bit of esoterica (old Mercedes? Find a Bedford or a DAF? Guarantee every mechanical bit will need to be swapped out for something you can get parts for?)
4. RV? I think these are all over the map from effectively pickup chassis that were never meant to haul that much to nearly commercial buses.

So... When you get a medium duty truck from 1975, how does it compare to a pickup? I imagine it'll ride like crap... The '90s era Freightliner box vans I drove for a while had cramped cabs and stiff rides BUT they were actually more relaxing to drive when laden than the 3/4 ton vans because nothing ever made them bob and weave. They just went where they were pointed regardless of load or weather. In terms of the ability to haul, to tow, and to control those loads, how does a 1970 Ford C600 compare to a 2010 F250? It won't be as polished, but does the old truck make up for the load-bearing parts in sheer mass?

For question 2, some of these are more applicable to pickups than, say, medium duty trucks, but, broadly, which of the major updates are most feasible, practical, what are the pros and cons of them?

1. Modern drivetrain (well trodden, very GRM)
2. Body swap (e.g. put your '66 F-250 body on a 2005 F-250) Fixes a lot all at once, but is, I expect, way harder than it looks, especially if you want the details right.
3. Axle swap (this is one I'm not that familiar with, but it seems like with truck construction whether you're talking pickups or bigger trucks, you should be able to gain a lot in brakes, possibly gearing, etc by putting more modern axle assemblies on an older truck, though this misses that whole thing where they started boxing frame rails circa 2000?)
4. (1A, actually); how much "truck engine" is really important when a vehicle is mostly a local errands vehicle for unwieldy objects, but occasionally needs to pull something heavy up a big hill? I mean, can we use boost on a smaller engine? Feeding this 460 to get 50lbs of 2x4s sucks, but it's nice to have with a heavy trailer.

Interesting ideas 

Do you have to pass safety inspection or  smog  every year or two ?

That may stop you putting an older body on a new chassis.

In reply to californiamilleghia :

Good point. I know it's been done quite a bit, but I'm not sure what the VIN gets tied to here in Oregon (and I'm sure it varies by state). You could badly damage the cab on a 2005 F-250 and replace it with one from a 2004, I'm sure (unless I'm making a silly F-series facelift year mistake), so there must be a way to reconcile that. Oregon (well, in metro areas like where I am) does have a smog check at reg renewal, but not a safety inspection per se. It's oddly simpler and yet more complicated than with cars having a separate body and chassis; seems like the chassis would be the essence of the truck itself, but I suspect there's a VIN tag on the dashboard and in the door jamb of newer trucks. Maybe it's a "bring your paperwork and get it inspected at the highway patrol" thing? This doesn't cover this particular scenario by name, but I suspect it falls into the reconstructed/assembled category here.

Speaking of playing by the rules, I'm not sure what it takes to make a commercial vehicle into a personal one or "RV," or what pitfalls await trying to insure one. I know I ran into issues at the rental place when excavating for the garage, because they'd happily send me home with an excavator, but couldn't rent me a dump truck because my insurance doesn't reach to vehicles over a certain... weight, IIRC? Again, conversion to "it's an RV" is probably the answer here.

I think you need to better define "good capability for both hauling and towing".   Do you want it to do what modern HD pickups do? Do you want to haul more volume than a pickup can haul? Are you OK with the higher load surface of a flatbed? Do you want a dually?

To get a reasonable (-ish) ride, I'd recommend a 2wd truck with an independent front suspension. That rules out "a  medium duty truck from 1975", and points you towards 3/4 or 1 ton trucks. Suspension designs on those are pretty close to what is on new trucks. Modern radials in a modern size, and with an aspect ratio of at least 65, will ride waaaay better than the skinny rock hard bias-plies that those trucks had when new. Combine that with fresh suspension parts and modern shocks, and you'll have a ride nearly like a new HD pickup (or so I assert). Steering might harder to upgrade, but I at least don't mind recirc ball steering if everything is in good shape.

What powertrain do you want? Those 70's vintage rears will handle whatever you (reasonably) want. I'd go with a 500+ ci gasser, but maybe you'd prefer a diesel. All the popular swaps have been done, so info is available. Make sure you think about cooling. Install modern A/C.

Select a transmission with lots of gears, including a creeper and OD. Plenty of choices. Maybe you'd prefer a twin stick, like an old truck 4 speed with a 3 speed aux box, or just a modern 8-10 speed auto.

Inside, add modern seats with lots of adjustments, LOTS of sound deadening, and decent audio. Do you want space behind the front seat, like an extended or crew cab? If so, your search will get a lot harder. Ergonomics will be vintage regardless - that's part of the charm.

What is your weight goal for towing and hauling? Knowing a rough number would be a good place to start.

I love the idea of a single axle day cab truck with a pickup bed. Absolutley silly, but it'll hual most anything you are licensed to tow without hesitation. 

californiamilleghia said:

Interesting ideas 

Do you have to pass safety inspection or  smog  every year or two ?

That may stop you putting an older body on a new chassis.

Honest question: Why would it? Wouldn't it be easier for a 2005 truck to comply with emissions than an older truck? Even if the car would be smogged like a 2005 model?

I am a bit hazy about how smog laws would affect pre smog cars, but isn't it the case in California that if you put a newer drivetrain in you have to bring over everything smog related in order for it to pass? Or are they completely exempt?

To reiterate one point by Uncle David, you will NOT like  driving a '70s MDT.


I've trotted out this photo before, but my 80K mile '78 D200 does most "truck stuff" very well, and since the steering and suspension aren't worn out, actually is pleasant to drive, either with out without a load.







I enjoyed so much it became my Daily Driver for a couple summers.

Russian Warship, Go Berkeley Yourself said:

To reiterate one point by Uncle David, you will NOT like  driving a '70s MDT.

I've spent many hours in a meticulously maintained early 80s medium duty, Chevy D70, which I assume is better than one 10 yeas older. Doesn't hold a candle in comfort or handling to our 2000s E450 in comfort or drivability.

I've tried the old truck thing a few times.  Definitely cool, but they don't hold a candle to newer trucks.

I had a 76 F250 with a 460 and 4 speed.  Every single bushing, the rear springs, shocks (Bilstein), brakes, and steering component were replaced.  It was hideous.  With the seat the whole way back I was still smashed against the steering wheel and had to lift my knee to my forehead to get my foot on the clutch.  The frame was floppy by comparison.  The 12" discs up front and the 11" drums out back wouldn't stop a Tercel.  The 460 was so neutered that it only made something like 195 hp and it got 9mpg.  Can those things be improved?  Certainly.  But the money you spend on upgrading everything could buy two newer trucks and you'll have a much smarter platform to start with.  That F250 struggled to tow 8000 lbs.  Compare that to dad's 08 dually duramax which has towed 18,000 in cushy comfort and quietness as if you were towing a cardboard box.

This is a 67-72 Chevy 1/2 ton frame.  Note that it's c-channel and has two stamped crossmembers bolted under it.

Now compare it to something more modern.  The steel is nearly 3 times as tall, it's fully boxed from the axle forward, and has several tubular crossmembers that pass through the frame channels and fully welded.

First off, the objections to this entire idea are correct. I just want to say that before I continue waffling about why I'm still interested and how much modern trucks bore me. I am listening, and folks are making sense.

There's a part of me that doesn't want to update my expectations.

My truck ownership (or adjacency) consists of a '97 F-250, a '91 F-250, a '66 F-250, and a 2001 B2500 van. So my expectations for cab space and comfort are already set on "archaic." The high water mark for capability is the '97 (it's a holdover of the OBS because it's the "HD" model, not the new 7-lug etc etc...), so basically a '66 with fuel injection, front disc brakes, and similar evolutionary updates.

I also spent some time delivering auto parts in an International 4700, which made the '66 look spacious. I swear that thing's pedals were under the seat. But as noted in my initial ramble, its stability made it less fatiguing in a lot of ways. I don't know how different a '90s MDT is from a '70s MDT. And then we get back to the question of things like axle swaps (seems like MDTs are more standardized than pickups for commodity parts? I'm probably reading too much into Project Escargot).

The upshot here is that while the tradeoffs against a modern truck are real, my expectations aren't set at "2015 F-450." My expectations are more being accustomed to older trucks but wondering whether I can make one safe and reasonable enough to use in a modern context. This all may be a range of different flavors of stupid, but I'm not done exploring it just yet.

Not stupid at all.  As an owner of a few classic cars, I'm a huge lover of driving stuff that sometimes sucks to drive :)

I would focus on chassis stuff.  Given the fact that a lot of older trucks used chassis parts that were only one small step above their car cousins, and brakes were pretty crappy, I might start with a beefy axle swap with big discs.  The front end might be pretty easy too.  Ball joints are offered in about 6 mounting styles so you have a good chance of a ball joint swap to put some modern knuckles with big discs up front.  I was able to put 1978 truck knuckles on my 1966 Bonneville that way.  It got me 8 lugs and more brakes than I possibly need.

I would also consider boxing the frame at a minimum, possibly adding some additional crossmembers to stiffen stuff up.  

If your not going to pull a goose neck trailer I don't think I would bother with a full chassis swap.  Modern HD trucks have amazing towing but if you are only doing it occasionally its probably not worth the effort.

If you are mainly looking for something fun to drive that can tow I would do a light duty truck with air helper springs. Depending on what truck things you need it to do you may even drop down to a small truck to get more car based suspension up front.

In reply to Caperix :

There is a lot of truth here.  A 5th wheel or gooseneck of the same size/weight will tow MUCH nicer than a bumper pull since you don't have 4' of leverage between the fulcrum and the axle.

If you're towing 10 miles, you could do it with a Camry (not really) but if you're going cross-country, always go overkill.  My F250 powerstroke was well-suited to pull 10k lbs, but after a 600 mile day of all the little white-knuckle corrections made for a taxing "on-the-clock" day.  It made it a three-beer evening instead of just some chamomile tea.  I was wishing for a dually for that trailer.

Random thought that might be so obvious it's already been dismissed, but what the heck:

Assuming I can live with the ergonomic compromises of the cab itself, what about using something like a Ford C-series for its deep-compared-to-a-pickup-of-the-era frame rails, but using modern axles (F-4/5/650?) to give it real brakes, a modern drivetrain (for which I hope there's plenty of room in a bigger truck like that), and airbags instead of leafs to give it springing appropriate to the load at any given time, so that it's not so brutal to drive lightly laden?

Do  you need a 3/4 or 1 ton truck?  If you go with a 1/2 ton, the aftermarket support for restomod stuff (suspension, brakes and so on) is much better.

This seems like an ideal spot to post these pictures I took yesterday.  Built by an old time local hot rod guy.  Note the reconfiguring of the box side to match the cab lines.  Lots of talent there.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

That's awesome! Any idea what's going on under the pretty sheetmetal?

*Please say duramax... please say duramax... please say duramax*

It's a reasonably new GM chassis  Owner wasn't around.  It didn't smell bad  so I presume gasoline powered.

If I see it when the owner is around, I will ask.

Not sure whether the seats are from the donor truck, but they look 20ish years old.  I took this picture becausevI was trying to decide whether it was a factory 4 door or fabricated.  If it's not factory, it's really well done.

Jesse Ransom said:

Random thought that might be so obvious it's already been dismissed, but what the heck:

Assuming I can live with the ergonomic compromises of the cab itself, what about using something like a Ford C-series for its deep-compared-to-a-pickup-of-the-era frame rails, but using modern axles (F-4/5/650?) to give it real brakes, a modern drivetrain (for which I hope there's plenty of room in a bigger truck like that), and airbags instead of leafs to give it springing appropriate to the load at any given time,

Ford C series cab onto a newer LCF or COE chassis like a W5500 or an NQR?

What's harder, a Hat or a full suspension swap?

First, what's the mission?   What you need to tow/haul is going to drive the solution.

I fully agree with everything Curtis has posted.  I've had a '94 gas F250, '95 diesel F250, 2000 diesel F250, 2004 Dodge diesel dually, and currently have a '17 Ram diesel dually.  The earlier trucks weren't hauling anything too heavy (small enclosed trailer for roadrace bikes), but the 2000 F250 was way ahead of the OBS trucks for comfort and ability.  Things got heavy with the duallies, and the '17 is LIGHT YEARS ahead of the '04.  We just did 3800 miles on a trip, with a couple of days in the high 800 mile range.  That would not have been possible in the '04... too much more work to drive.

The difference in comfort/NVH/capability between old and new trucks cannot be discounted if you are doing any kind of distance.  In a newer truck it will be much less taxing, and you will arrive less tired.  Even a modern chassis under an old body would probably only get you 50% toward the comfort of a current truck.

WRT medium duty trucks, regulations will depend on the state, but I think most require some kind of bathroom and kitchen to qualify as an "RV".  just a sleeper isn't going to do it.  

My limited experience driving a couple of medium dutys back in the '90s suggest that they are even worse than old pickups to drive.

Rodan said:

First, what's the mission?

I was really hoping to just get people to chuck out general ideas to address the shortcomings so we end up with a big pile of improvements and tradeoffs to ponder in a general sense. That is, we know a lot about what makes newer trucks better than older trucks. How do we apply some of those same improvements, what are we really stuck with? Some things can be swapped directly, some via a little bracketry, some will involve major reengineering. All are interesting to me.

There's a lot of room, but the one demarcation I would say is that I'm not talking about a half-ton equivalent that'll never carry more than a dirt bike or camper top and folks just want a car with a huge, outdoor trunk. I'm talking about heavier usage than that, but open-ended.

I'm kinda asking the truck version of "How do we restomod an old car if we probably want to go around corners and have an enjoyable car but aren't building to a specific class?" I guess you'd usually ask that about a specific car, but trucks are a bit more generic; old trucks all have ladder chassis that aren't as deep as modern ones and aren't boxed and don't have enough crossmembers. They all have insufficient brakes and power. They mostly share a relative simplicity in terms of suspension swaps in that most truck suspensions should be adaptable to "a ladder chassis" I would think.

"LS swap everything" may be nearly as applicable here, but we can move the diesel/gas for trucks fight into another thread

Regarding medium duty trucks, that's an excellent example of the tradeoffs: They're basically less comfortable, but you can load them a lot more before they bob and weave alarmingly, right? You can have comfort and capability for just $80k and living with a new pickup, but that's a different thread.

buzzboy said:

Ford C series cab onto a newer LCF or COE chassis like a W5500 or an NQR?

What's harder, a Hat or a full suspension swap?

That's a great question. Any idea? I'd assume that body swap is harder than suspension swap, maybe influenced by what I recall as JohnInKansas' stalled project, but maybe not?

The other half of the question is "how much have medium duty chassis changed, and how close is a C series with NQR axles on it to a a full NQR chassis?" We know old pickup chassis are flimsy compared to new ones; have medium duty chassis changed similarly? How about the differences between the (and I don't mean to get hung up on the C series specifically) C-500, C-600, C-700, C-800, and C-900? Is it springs/brakes/engine? Axles? Frame rails?

And what about the variety of RV chassis, for something that's nominally already a consumer grade vehicle but on the scale we might be after? I understand they span all the way from "barely suitable to carry their own fiberglass skin" to "effectively a medium duty truck," right? I shudder to think of the price tag, but the capability of this stripped RV chassis from Ford is compelling.

A friends BIL built this truck probably 10 years ago. I'm not sure of the exact years but its a 50's body slapped on a mid-2000s 2500HD frame. Duramax powered of course. I believe the dash, seats etc are all from the newer truck.