R&T made me really, really sad with a hot take on sports cars...and they might be right

In reply to Daylan C :

The issue is that there's a lot of expensive hobbies/things now competing for limited income. Games are 60 bucks, phones are 300+, education costs have become frankly absurd, and, add in top of that, insurance is expensive for young drivers. 

At the same time you can do a lot of things with an internet connection now. I can order nearly anything from Amazon (why go to BestBuy or the mall?) and I can rent movies from my couch (why deal with over priced food, 170 db theaters, and 40 bucks for tickets?) That's removed a lot of the need or desire to go out and do things I did when I was 16.

What's a track night these days? 120 dollars or so, gas, travel time, etc? 

That makes me choose between 80+ hours of video games and a 3 hour on track experience (Or a month less of student loan payments depending on my priorities.) I really have to want to get on track for that money to be worth it.

As an elder millennial I often don't go anywhere if I'm not required to because I'd rather save that cash to pay off student loans which puts me in a better long term position. Cars just happen to be my hobby and I'm in a position where I can spend some money on them (sometimes.) I also find myself enjoying the drive into work or drive to a client or prospects facility so I own something semi practical and interesting to drive. I can't imagine viewing a drive as a chore as it would just be 40+ minutes of misery a day instead of something to look forward to at the start and end of the day.

m_walker26 said:

SWMBO observed just the other day that the government now mandated that young families drive minivan, SUVs and the like due to having to put baby (excuse me, child safety seats) in the back seat and that children be in such seats until some weight was attained (65 pounds maybe).   The inconvenience knocks out most four door cars, two doors are a nonstarter.

Welcome to GRM.

Just so you know, kids should be in rear facing car seats for as long as possible, upwards of 35-40lbs in weight.  Its a pretty well documented and tested recommendation.  Some states have changed or are considering changing the laws to match or get closer to this recommendation.

As to requiring minivans or SUVs, I have two car seats in my Focus RS, so I'm not sure what you're on about.

Kids in rear facing car seats shouldn't be used in seats with an airbag (unless that airbag is disabled) since it would be like strapping a rocket to their car seat and lighting it off.

Anyway, my 2.5 year old daughter loves riding in Daddy's car and spent a bunch of time clambering into each and every car at the Auto Show recently.  She also sat in some 1/4 Midgets and had a great time.  She also likes to "work" on her toy cars in between playing Disney Princess and singing "Let it go" I think kids will find things to enjoy about the automotive world, no matter what it might look like in the future.

What it might look like in the future is really the issue at hand and with the current economic and world climate, I suspect that for many cars HAVE to be a utility and viewed only as occasionally necessary, for others it may be more, but not something worthwhile to pursue.

I think part of the decline in the interest in driving is the result of the increased traffic density.  In probably 75% of the country you don't get enough space to drive in a spirited manner. If all you know of driving is the flow of traffic from A to B, sure I can see driving isn't that interesting.  And I don't even mean places like LA, Atlanta, or DFW.  There's also been a swing from doing things ina physical space to doing it in a virtual space (he says in a computer forum instead of hanging out in a speed shop.)  Id bet there are comparable declines in expressed interest in any physical activity - including traditional sports and such. The flip side of that is the resurgence of interest in outdoorsy things by a smaller but more intense population who have 'rediscovered' the value of doing things with their hands - like the maker movement, throwing hatchets, all kinds of stuff.  I think that probably becomes the very definition of 'enthusiast.'

In reply to OldGray320i :

I don't need to explain your anecdotes.

Perhaps you need to read what I wrote again to comprehend it-

I said- "Cars in general are unimpressive to young people"

I backed it up with a study that stated- "The percentage of 20- to 24-year-olds with licenses went from in  91.8% in 1983  to 76.7% in 2014."

Anecdotal observations that backed aren't backed up with fact are just that.  Anecdotal.  

You first argument fails because of the availability heuristic it is based on.

You second argument fails because you are trying to argue against a point I never made.


Read it again.   "Cars in general are unimpressive to young people"  Back up by the undeniable trend that is shown as a fact.

What you choose to read from this statistic is your choice, but the point that I made is that the automobile is dying, and you merely need to look to what the manufacturers are planning to see that as the truth.  2 doors are nearly dead.   The sedan is king of the automobile, but it is getting hammered by trucks and SUVs.   These are facts. 

 Ford wants to leave the automobile almost completely, save for the Mustang and the new Focus Active, which is essentially a crossover. ("For example, by 2020, almost 90 percent of the Ford portfolio in North America will be trucks, utilities and commercial vehicles. Given declining consumer demand and product profitability, the company will not invest in next generations of traditional Ford sedans for North America. Over the next few years, the Ford car portfolio in North America will transition to two vehicles – the best-selling Mustang and the all-new Focus Active crossover coming out next year.")

GM said that it will discontinue U.S. production of the Chevrolet Volt, Cruze and Impala, along with the Buick LaCrosse, the Cadillac XTS and the Cadillac CT6

Chrysler sold more cars in September than Ford, but all they have left is the 300 for Chrysler, and the Charger and Challenger.

I don't have time to provide every link, but cars are in a free fall pretty much across the board.  Porsche and BMW didn't suddenly decide to sell SUVs on a whim.

 

Daylan C said:

I don't understand the idea of young people not wanting to drive in general. Do they not love freedom? Lets be honest. Driving dumb cars as a hobby is usually expensive and inconvenient. But a Yaris in your life opens up so many opportunities.

You pretty much hit on one important part of it. 

I've wondered about this, as well.  What I found is kids aren't as likely to go out to socialize anymore.  We are dealing with a generation that doesn't feel they have to get out of the house to interact.  They do so on their phones and computers.  Many times blocking out the rest of the world, even when they are away from the house. To me, and many of my generation and before, a car meant freedom.  Social interaction.  And to be honest, a rush of dopamine from adrenaline.    Nowadays, kids get all of that from a small screen in their hand.

The other common reason I have heard is that kids are afraid to drive, even though it is far less dangerous than when I was growing up.   I am not entirely sure of the reason for this, but my suspicion is all the campaigns to show the dangers of drinking and driving, texting and driving, and the failure to wear seatbelts.  If my suspicion is correct, I really don't know what the answer would be to correct that fear.
 

Daylan C said:

I don't understand the idea of young people not wanting to drive in general. Do they not love freedom? Lets be honest. Driving dumb cars as a hobby is usually expensive and inconvenient. But a Yaris in your life opens up so many opportunities.

And many want to live in urban areas where a car isn't as much of a necessity. 

For instance, when I first moved to OKC, I moved into a downtown apartment. There were multiple good restaurants, bars, and dives within a 15 minute walk (it was a pain to pull the car in and out of the secured parking in the middle of building with all the levels and slow speeds). Had a nice little organic grocery store in the bottom of my building (ok for the occasional sandwich or something your forgot, but a bit pricey to buy everything there). 

3-4 more entertainment districts were a cheap Uber ride away and back home. 

I literally only used my car the 3 days per week I go into the office. I would go ahead and hit the liqour store and the grocery store on the way home one of the days I went into the office. 

So my BRZ was seeing about 70 miles per week (going to work and errands on the way home). Payment + Insurance + gas, it might have been cheaper to have no car and use Uber for everything.

In reply to Cooter :

holy crap you have an amazing ability to come off as a shiny happy person with the e36-iest attitude to accompany. 

Pretty much off the bat oldgrays point was about auto enthusiasts being a small niche community. "maybe but we've always been a smaller demographic" as well as "Numbers don't lie, but they don't predict the death of the consistent but small enthusiast community"

He's not even refuting your points about young people not wanting to drive either, he's agreeing with them and offering a plausible explanation as well. "It's at least as plausible to say  that people who never cared that much about cars anyway can dispense with the expense of having one" and "Numbers don't lie"

for someone bringing up false mental shortcuts and arguments based on points never made, i do find some irony  

in your own words.... read what was written again so you can comprehend it  

"Numbers dont lie"  

"It's at least as plausible to say  that people who never cared that much about cars anyway can dispense with the expense of having one"  

"maybe but we've always been a smaller demographic"

Someone shook the jar. The bees are fighting.

Baruth is right. Sports cars are dorky as heck now. Evidence?

1) I'm into them, so that means they can't be very cool. 

2) old rich guys are into them.

3) young tech dork bros are into them.

4) flat brim/ vape bros are into them.

5) my hipster wife refuses to even RIDE in my Solstice with me because "she feels like she's some bimbo mistress".

Exception: anything Radwood, air-cooled Porsches.

Times change, and sometimes the change sucks!

In reply to Dave M :  

i thought flat brim bros were still cool? or have the times changed already?  

lmao @ your 'bimbo mistress'

In reply to dculberson :

ya, something about that post got me all hot n bothered lol

TurboFocus said:

In reply to Dave M :  

i thought flat brim bros were still cool? or have the times changed already?  

lmao @ your 'bimbo mistress'

In reply to dculberson :

ya, something about that post got me all hot n bothered lol

Pretty sure the flat brim crew was cool in like 2003 but now the whole Monster Energy Drink and Vape act is desperate.

I'm the starting edge of millenial at 32 and I don't want a sports car.



But that's got more to do with my desires to square peg through round hole with dumb E36 M3 that shouldn't be raced. Current "plan" with my dakota now that I have a less junky vehicle to use daily involves a junkyard v8 and at least one turbo.

In reply to pointofdeparture :

do you even vape bro'? 

In reply to Dave M :

E36 M3, i really like my hats tho.... and theres only one monster to consume, we should all know this by now

All I have to say is that the 83 Supra was absolutely NOT a 924 ripoff.   What, all cars with pop-up headlights and a hatch have to pay homage to the 924?   I disagree.  

The Supra had a straight six that would leave the anemic 4cyl Porsche for dead--- for about 1/2 the money. (until the 944 at least)   The Supra had a much more luxurious interior, as it was always supposed to be a GT, not a sports car.   Sure it started as a Japanese Monte Carlo, but the 2nd and 3rd generations were very much  Japanese BMW 6-series interpretations.   So he's sorta right.......and he appears to be good at "stirring the pot" to get attention.  

Heck, the 2nd gen Supras have more in common with a 928 than a 924.   

From my female friends, "sports cars are for desperate old men."  Even the argument that I like driving them doesn't fly.  I really don't care and will continue to drive them, but I may never get another date.  

Of course a car that does not fit that mold is the MINI.  I rarely ever drive it that a woman doesn't comment about how much she likes it, and that's all age women.  

To the original question, kids that I know seem to have no interest at all in cars.  I have been working on my grandson to like cars and racing, and even at 12yo couldn't care less.  He has no interest in anything that moves be it bicycles, skateboards, motorcycles, anything.  My 22yo nephew is the same way.  He has a truck, but only because there are times he has to drive such as to go to work.  Other than that, he has zero interest in anything car related.  Both myself and my brother (his dad) tried take him to races, etc., and my brother even bought him a MR2 and Z28 when he was younger, but he never drove either car.  Very sad.  

In reply to TurboFocus :

What is going on there?

Anecdotally, my kids that are of driving age desperately want a license and a car to go with it. Neither of them cares at all what car it is even though they were raised around a variety of interesting cars. They would both be happy with a 10 year old CVT Versa. They do have VERY strong opinions on phones. 

Nerd stuff can take place anywhere, any time, in any weather and costs almost nothing. Cars have many more restrictions.

In reply to GCrites80s :

But cars ARE nerd stuff at this point.

And former nerd stuff is what's "normal" now

So. Many.  Responses. Must not troll.

Cars are expensive, kids got no dough.

Why buy a car when you can play Mario Kart?

"No way my mom will let me drive anything smaller than the Range Rover."

Kids don't need to go out.  Internet porn brings girls right to your bedroom, and there is no risk of them accusing you of rape.

I think somebody hasn't driven an old Supra for a long time.  The early ones were slowww.  Faster than a 924, but that's hardly saying anything.

When I'm hiking my grandson into his car seat in the middle of the back seat, I wonder about the balance of safety vs back injuries, and whether people just drive into E36 M3 while they are trying to figure out what is happening back there, as opposed to the kid being beside you, where you can attend to minor situations.  And yes, I know about the risk of friendly explosive pillows.

Sports car fans have always been in the minority.

A Honda minivan is faster than an E type ever was. 

If a female ever said, "I don't like sports cars", that would be the last date.  I made that mistake once, and it will not happen again.

I bet I missed some.  May come back and edit after a couple of Jacks.

Eh. They're gonna ban ICEs and non self driving cars in a couple years then nuke us all after the face of the earth 3 weeks later anyway. 

Sometimes I view this forum from a work computer with a really small monitor and realize how big my posts look.  I should turn down my resolution for purposes of brevity. 

I agree with many of you! Take that!

In reply to TurboFocus :

I think if you need to resort to name calling, it might be time to step away from the keyboard for a while.