Rules By Comittee a $2014 Thread

Delete me if the Powers that Be want to Start this. With the recent Cage change rules and my desire to Actually maybe possibly participate in the $2014 event I'd like to see some rules discussion.

My Idea would be to add the following:

Production Based/Kit cars are Allowed to participate if prepared in accordance with an approved SCCA sanctioned class. The Cars must be prepared such that they would be allowed to run legally within the Following SCCA classes DM, EM, any Prepared class, or Running as a Special exception BM car including Weight/displacement rules. This does not allow AM specials. Cars must be ran on DOT legal tires.

This seems to be in line with the modifications allowed within the current rules and further promotes what the challenge is about which is to "go racing for cheap". I don't feel it would give an unfair advantage to these cars as they would be slower than a car that could be created within the current Rules. My issue is current challenge cars are often times not legal to run in SCCA classes other than Dmod or Emod however using the current rules the cars are comprimized and non-competitve in these classes. This would allow a challenger to prepare a True Mod or Prepared class car and have it have a chance at being competitive/usefull after the challenge.

Anyone more familiar with NASA rules or SCCA road racing rules feel free to ammend my rule to include other appropriate classes.

Also please discuss other rules want's/needs. Perhaps we should start a Google Document or a Wiki page of proposed rules in an effort to crowdsource a Challenge rule set?

I'd like to see a rule that would allow non production based cars if they had been (and it could be proven) road registered at least 20 years prior to the year of the event. This would allow a lot of really really weird old cars to be saved and used for something awesome and we're not starting with just a pile of tube and a dream, though a pile of tube and a dream is pretty awesome too. There's a lot of cool 70's fiberglass that should be saved.

There is a class for those cars just saying. I vote leave the rules alone except maybe delete the free Kumhos rule. I like the event the way it is.

93EXCivic wrote: There is a class for those cars just saying. I vote leave the rules alone except maybe delete the free Kumhos rule. I like the event the way it is.

There is an exhibition class for those cars. You do not run in the normal scored event and are not eligible for any awards. Unless this has changed since the last time I read the rules.

93EXCivic wrote: There is a class for those cars just saying. I vote leave the rules alone except maybe delete the free Kumhos rule. I like the event the way it is.

No, just make the free kuhmos rule mean FREE KUHMOS as in, they provide the tires.

The current rule is a slap in the face to what the competition is supposed to be about.

nocones wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: There is a class for those cars just saying. I vote leave the rules alone except maybe delete the free Kumhos rule. I like the event the way it is.

There is an exhibition class for those cars. You do not run in the normal scored event and are not eligible for any awards. Unless this has changed since the last time I read the rules.

I thought there was a locost class for cars like that.

There is a Class for them. So you are able to come play at the event. You are not however eligable to win anything.

28.A Special class for locosts/race cars/kit cars/etc. will be run for exhibition only. It will be scored independently from the rest of the competitors. The Special-class competitors will only be eligible for the Special-class trophies, unless one of them explodes spectacularly. Then we may reconsider. Special-class cars must also meet the classification requirements for a recognized autocross class (for example: SCCA’s A Modified). These cars must meet all Challenge budget rules and safety regulations with the following exceptions: a) The cars do not have to be roadworthy. Headlights, windshields and horns are not required. b) Non-DOT approved racing slicks are allowed.

icaneat50eggs wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: There is a class for those cars just saying. I vote leave the rules alone except maybe delete the free Kumhos rule. I like the event the way it is.

No, just make the free kuhmos rule mean FREE KUHMOS as in, they provide the tires. The current rule is a slap in the face to what the competition is supposed to be about.

Agreed. With all the exemptions, you could pretty easily have $3k-$4K in a "$2k car" if you chose to. That's pretty much the exact opposite of the original spirit of the event.

nocones wrote: There is a Class for them. So you are able to come play at the event. You are not however eligable to win anything. 28.A Special class for locosts/race cars/kit cars/etc. will be run for exhibition only. It will be scored independently from the rest of the competitors. The Special-class competitors will only be eligible for the Special-class trophies, unless one of them explodes spectacularly. Then we may reconsider. Special-class cars must also meet the classification requirements for a recognized autocross class (for example: SCCA’s A Modified). These cars must meet all Challenge budget rules and safety regulations with the following exceptions: a) The cars do not have to be roadworthy. Headlights, windshields and horns are not required. b) Non-DOT approved racing slicks are allowed.

Not true. There is a specials class trophy. You are eligible for that. You are NOT, however, eligible for the other trophies:

First, second and third overall
First, second and third fastest drag times
First, second and third best autocross times
First, second and third best concours scores
Most spectacular failure
Best Engineered
Spirit of the Event
Highest-finishing car under $1000
Highest-finishing classic car (pre-1973, unless car in same basic form was available later)
Editors’ choice
Best underhood detailing
Best visual package
Challengers’ choice (voted on by the competitors)
Top-finishing all-girl team entry
Top-finishing one-person team entry
Best attempt to persuade concours judges
Fastest Special-class car
Top-finishing club entry
Top-finishing oddball car

I say leave it alone. If you are going to change that, though, you could include oddball, spirit, and challenger's choice as things that might be eligible for specials. There's a good chance that the zamboni could have won the Oddball or the Challenger's Choice.

Keep those ideas coming.

We have been discussing the $2014 Challenge, and we'll be picking some of your brains one-on-one, too.

I actually don't understand the reasoning behind separating the non-production-based cars.

Sure, someone could build a locost and potentially dust the field in the autocross. (Especially with the Kumho rule) But they still have to fight the same juggling act everyone else has to when it comes to the drags. Any $2000 Locost that could be near the top of the heap at the drags is going to be a NIGHTMARE on the autox course.

Just apply the same rule that's applied to the production cars: They have to appear as something that could conceivably be registered and street driven. Wipers, lights, brakes, wheels, tires, etc...

Why was this separated in the first place? Did somebody complain? I really don't think the advantage that comes with something like that outweighs the sheer amount of additional work the guys building these things have to do.

I mean, i could see separating something like a BMOD "car," but actual kit cars built from scratch? Nah.

The Exhibition class is a cop-out, in my humble opinion. And this is as someone that would never even think to try to bring a kit car of any kind to the Challenge.

Swank Force One wrote: I actually don't understand the reasoning behind separating the non-production-based cars. Sure, someone could build a locost and potentially dust the field in the autocross. (Especially with the Kumho rule) But they still have to fight the same juggling act everyone else has to when it comes to the drags. Any $2000 Locost that could be near the top of the heap at the drags is going to be a NIGHTMARE on the autox course. Just apply the same rule that's applied to the production cars: They have to appear as something that could conceivably be registered and street driven. Wipers, lights, brakes, wheels, tires, etc... Why was this separated in the first place? Did somebody complain? I really don't think the advantage that comes with something like that outweighs the sheer amount of additional work the guys building these things have to do. I mean, i could see separating something like a BMOD "car," but actual kit cars built from scratch? Nah. The Exhibition class is a cop-out, in my humble opinion. And this is as someone that would never even think to try to bring a kit car of any kind to the Challenge.

I like the production-cars-only idea, actually. I'd say there are grey areas, but someone who throws an engine on a set of framerails with a rollbar and a seat with a giant set of tires would beat up on anyone.

But I haven't entered yet. So my opinion probably shouldn't count. It's about the magazine, so I'd assume they are after "look what you can do with your car!" not "Look what this guy who's brother owns a scrapyard full of tube can do"

I'm a big picture guy, most of these details don't interest me a whole lot.

I guess my first question is, what is the point of the challenge?

When I first heard of the challenge, I THOUGHT the idea was to show people that it is possible to go racing cheaply, and to show how much fun can be had for very little investment.

Now I'm not so sure.

The Kuhmo rule means you pretty much have to spend about a grand on tires to make it competitive.

The other issue I have is as soon as you open the rules you quickly see that it's actually NOT possible to go race for $2013, because of the huge "safety items don't count" clause.

I think you would be much better off painting a true to life picture of what it takes to actually go racing at the cheapest level in either 1 of two ways.

1. No exemptions. you want to run a 10 second quarter, better budget for a cage.
2. raise the price to something realistic that the top cars last year would have spent without the exemptions.

This makes it much more above board. When you proclaim, "look, you can go race for $xxx" it will have credibility.

But the question is: What makes a Locost less of a production car than the "N600" that showed up?

Or the "BMW Isetta?"

Or really any of Andy's latest creations?

Nothing. That's the answer, nothing.

yeah, I'd say a locost is way more production than my frankenfiat or several other things I've seen around here.

As a future participant . . . IMHO, I don't want to see it go the way of LeMons/Crapcan racing.

However I do loathe the shipping/transport rule, even though I kind of understand the reasoning behind it.

The budget free Kumho rules are kind of 'meh'. I could go with AST, but they are more expensive (by my wallet rule not by challenge budget rule) than the PZ900s I wanna try. But if the budget free Kumho rules are slated to be in effect for 2014, then why not? It would be nice to know that now, before I go and drop $$$ to get them. I still may forego that rule and get the PZ900s . . .

My main goals for the car are:

• Build it to participate in some SCCA AutoX class
• Build it under $2014
• Get my rolling death trap in the mag
• Something that did not require welding or fab work
• Aim for $1000 and under class
• Aim for caveman class (if that is still around)
• Aim for top 10 in the single person team
• Something I can hoon around in during any weather

If the free budget Kumho rules are in effect for 2014, the $1000 under class will be a snap.

oh yeah, question.

On the transporting the car/shipping.

I assumed this meant if you bought a car, shipped it to your house, those costs count against you.

However, I just re-read it and it's not real clear, so does this also apply to getting the car to the event? surely not.

Transporting the car to the event doesn't and never hit budget.

The transporting/shipping rule has to do with purchasing the car and/or parts.

Swank Force One wrote: But the question is: What makes a Locost less of a production car than the "N600" that showed up?

You're right......if anything, there's more information on how to build a locost than to do a crazy swap. (forced induction buick plant in bed of toyota pickup....there's no manual for that. My guess is that both of them require independent thinking. Rear engine subie powered wartburg? Yeah, that's not documented. (I'm not putting myself on the same level as those guys, but likewise, there were no instructions for making a hood out of a water heater.)

Swank Force One wrote: Or the "BMW Isetta?" Or really any of Andy's latest creations? Nothing. That's the answer, nothing.

That's especially true of Andy's volksrod.....for goodness' sake....the floor pan and transmission tunnel were made out of washing machine panels. That's EXACTLY what some of us have been trying. (Not that my opinion matters. I'm over budget, and now just trying to build a fun car. Yes, I'll bring it up, pay an entry fee and drive it as exhibition once just to have done it, but I won't try to B.S. my way into it being treated like a legit, totally-within-budget build.) The short answer is that I didn't have the skills or know-how to pull it off for ~$2K.

16vCorey wrote: Agreed. With all the exemptions, you could pretty easily have $3k-$4K in a "$2k car" if you chose to. That's pretty much the exact opposite of the original spirit of the event.

This could be addressed by putting everything in the budget (as some have recommended) or by devoting space in the magazine to include both the budgeted cost, the excluded items cost, and the total.

I'm not sure how you'd police that sort of thing. I'd say open the event up and ENCOURAGE people to show up with ANYTHING in the exhibition class, regardless of budget, but then it might turn the event so large that it would become unmanageable.

And the UTCC already exists.

I agree with the above posts, Locosts should be able to run with the production cars for the overall win. If anything it's a huge budget disadvantage to start from scratch since you can't recoup more than you spent on the donor. I'm hoping to make $2015 or $2016 budget with my Midlana, but it's going to be TOUGH. Locosts should be required to be street legal to run.

I also support the Kumho rule. It's about the only chance I have of making budget, and I've sized my wheels to fit the Ecsta XSs.

The playing field needs a bit of leveling.

In $2014 we should all have to race Station Wagons, or XR4Ti's?, or LS motors?, or the same tire size?, or LS motors! and Station Wagons! ???

We all start with the same sorta Apple.

Swank Force One wrote: But the question is: What makes a Locost less of a production car than the "N600" that showed up? Or the "BMW Isetta?" Or really any of Andy's latest creations? Nothing. That's the answer, nothing.

I disagree, I think there is a difference, and so does the DMV! The N600, Isetta, etc. all look like they started life as a "normal" car, not a pile of tubes.

I think there's already a home for Locosts at the event. When I attend, they're there. No need for a rule change.

Bryce

bgkast wrote: since you can't recoup more than you spent on the donor.

Well, there's another issue. It's obvious that some people make money parting cars out. If all options are on the table, rule 15 could be revisited. Why limit the recoupe to the purchase price? (My guess is that it is to eliminate cheating.)

I bought my 910 wagon (the drivetrain donor) for $100. I can obviously sell it for scrap for more than that....probably even after pulling of dash, trim, seats and console to sell on ebay. I don't think that it would be unreasonable to get $400 out of the car.

I MIGHT have been under budget if I was able to recoupe the profit (That's not the case now.....after i figured out that I was going to to be over budget and could not change that because of Rule 15, I decided to change my entire approach to the build)