Say!!! where did everybody go???

I'm pretty sure a fair number of y'all have been through this   http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/buying/why-car-dealerships-hate-selling-to-enthusiasts/ar-BBI6NAi?li=BBnb4R5&OCID=HPDHP

In reply to 759NRNG :

Not sure I should care about this guy’s opinion. In fact, he’s just telling us what we know. Maybe I missed the point?

I've long suspected that.  I remember a couple of years going to look at a new Mustang with a friend, and they wanted to order a particular spec version.  The dealer basically told them they do not special order them any longer and it was take what was on the lot or don't buy one.  He didn't and spent much more on a BMW instead.  I had not experienced that before and it was a bit rude.  After reading this it makes more sense.

In reply to racerdave600 :

I actually had this happen too. When buying the crosstrek, I told them it must be hyper blue, premium, cvt, no other options. The HIGHLY unenthusiastic salesmen just nodded the whole time, talked to the secret wizard behind the glass, and eventually said “your vehicle will be here in two weeks”. When it showed up it had a bunch of options on it that I didn’t order and I promptly told them I wouldn’t be paying for those. They told me I did, I produced my paper that said no options on it. They then replied “oh, they all come with the winter package, so looks like you’ll be getting those options anyway”. I said “Berkeley you! Give me free oil changes!” To my surprise they did.  So I got free options and oil changes. 

Trackmouse said:

In reply to racerdave600 :

I said “Berkeley you! Give me free oil changes!

I can totally imagine you doing this 

Personally I have zero problems ordering stuff for anyone. And I love talking to enthusiasts but rarely get to :(

Know what would solve the problem? Let me fill out the berkeleying form online with option selections, drop a deposit on it and have it delivered to the berkeleying dealership where they can hand me the berkeleying keys and provide an invoice. 

This has been possible for 20 berkeleying years for every other business but instead dealerships would rather attempt to force you through a process they really don't want to undertake when an "enthusiast" car owner shows up. Most buyers described don't give a E36 M3 if they wait two or four weeks for the car as long as it fits the desired specs.

If unwinding the deal is such a problem make the deposit non refundable minimum 10%, like a restocking fee, as pennance for sticking a dealer with a car optioned in a less than desirable manner. 

The described process is why I keep cars until the floor falls out or someone totals it for me. It's also why dealerships rank right above cable companies in customer satisfaction. Well that and Mazda issuing a recall and not getting the dealership the parts for 8 months now.

Just take the maroon automatic with power moonroof like a normal person! [/dealer]

Part of the reason I haven't bought a turbo Transit van is because I don't want to deal with the emotional stress of dealing with a dealer about ordering one. Finding a fairly loaded brown short wheelbase low roof 3.6 van on the lot isn't going to happen. 

y'all need to get some fleet manager contacts. A fleet manager will pretty much do exactly that since they end up making their money off volume. We had a guy who helped us get started when we were doing Focus track days that was a fleet manager in Ventura, he had a wicked fast crate motored fox body as a track car.

it does make sense. Your normal "bread and butter" buyers are easy. They do not want special orders, special colours, or special packages. They are generally happy to take whatever is on the lot and within their price range. The Salesman can then load on the useless Zeibarting and paint protection, and walk away with a fat comission for very little work. If he deals with an enthusiast, he has to think

I would say it helps to live in an area like I do.  I only had that kind of problem once.  So I drove 10 miles down the road to another dealer of the same brand.  Told them what i wanted and that previous dealer was uncooperative.  Got exactly what I wanted.

Around here within 25 miles I can find at least 2 dealers for most any brand.  I think that that fact makes them more cooperative.

When I was shopping Chargers hard I stopped in at a dealer as I was leaving a job. Nice sales lady. Volunteered a test drive even after I told her that the cars on the lot are not optioned the way I wanted. Then I almost fell over when she volunteered to order a car for me. Told me it would take from between four and six weeks to deliver.  

Not if but when I decide to take the plunge on a new charger it will be heading back there. They were really nice no pressure people.  

The idea that we make a "fat commission" is always so frustrating. More often than not, I spend hours working to find someone the car they want (with them fighting me the entire time, convinced that I'm trying to berkeley them over), at a price they can afford, so that I can MAYBE come away with enough money to pay my car insurance. Now if you are buying something special, like a GT350 or a Raptor, or some other limited production type car, then yea there really isn't any haggling and I'll take home a fat commission. But if you come in and buy a corolla at sticker price, I'll be lucky to come away with $150 before taxes. I will say on pre-owned stuff the mark up is different and depending on what we got it for, I can come away with some money. At the end of the day, I'm not an shiny happy person here to berkeley you over. I'm just a normal person with bills to pay just like everyone else. Literally had a customer tell me "if you weren't so greedy about your paycheck we might be able to make a car deal happen". Oh gee sir yea sorry I'm so greedy over my $100 commission check. Of course I realize in this industry I am probably the minority, but so be it. I think the idea of ordering someone the perfect vehicle (even better if its an enthusiast ordering something neat) is pretty freakin cool. /endrant

Trackmouse said:

In reply to racerdave600 :

I actually had this happen too. When buying the crosstrek, I told them it must be hyper blue, premium, cvt, no other options. The HIGHLY unenthusiastic salesmen just nodded the whole time, talked to the secret wizard behind the glass, and eventually said “your vehicle will be here in two weeks”. When it showed up it had a bunch of options on it that I didn’t order and I promptly told them I wouldn’t be paying for those. They told me I did, I produced my paper that said no options on it. They then replied “oh, they all come with the winter package, so looks like you’ll be getting those options anyway”. I said “Berkeley you! Give me free oil changes!” To my surprise they did.  So I got free options and oil changes. 

My GF wanted the same exact car (color and all!) and the dealer jumped through hoops and did a trade from another state to get her the car she wanted. Sometimes they do care.

That being said, this has been my experience every time. I STILL haven't driven an S2000 despite telling at least a dozen dealerships that I've been interested in upgrading to one since 2010. And so I've bought every single car private party.

I didn't have that experience when I special ordered my Mustang back at the end of 2012.

"Hi, I'd like to use your dealership vs the other Ford dealers in town because it's a good location between my home and work. I want a white, base GT Mustang with the track pack, and no other options. Call me back with a good number and I'll come put a deposit down and we can order it today."

They called my back about an hour late and said they would do $3k off MSRP, so I promptly went and wrote them a deposit check for $1000. I think it took 6 weeks from order to dealership.

It was a perfectly pleasant experience. 

The only unpleasant car buying experience I've had was helping my girlfriend get used Honda fit back in August. I finally started cussing out the finance guy and telling him we were going to walk if he didn't stop with trying to sell us extras and let us finish the damn paperwork and leave. So 1 out of 8 experiences buying a car from a dealership was frustrating. 

I think many people have unrealistic expectations that these guys should be taking you out for a prime rib dinner and sending you to a massage for giving them the privilege of selling you a car.

In reply to MazdaFace :

I think the issue is that with (most) salespeople there is always an air of dishonesty. Are you making money on the sale? The financing? Charging me for stupid crap like etching the glass or wheel locks? Why won't most people talk to me about total price and insist on talking monthly payments without even noting the term? Why did I have to harass a finance guy to give me the 1.8% loan instead of the 2.0% loan he wanted to put me in because he thought I wanted a longer term without asking me if I did?  

There is a (perception anyway) of a culture of purposely confusing or misleading the customer in auto sales. That's why people always think they're getting scammed. I'd personally be perfectly happy ordering a car and paying sticker if I could sit at the computer with someone competent and order just what I wanted. No extra dealer add ons. No upselling me on crap. Just a chance to order a car with the options I want and have the dealer be honest about it. That's what's hard to find. 

mazdeuce - Seth said:. I'd personally be perfectly happy ordering a car and paying sticker if I could sit at the computer with someone competent and order just what I wanted. No extra dealer add ons. No upselling me on crap. Just a chance to order a car with the options I want and have the dealer be honest about it. That's what's hard to find. 

My friend worked at BMW on this exact model for years. He was clearing a six-figure income with a HS degree and multiple repeat customers just based on doing exactly this. Some guys really do do it right.

mazdeuce - Seth said:

In reply to MazdaFace :

I think the issue is that with (most) salespeople there is always an air of dishonesty. Are you making money on the sale? The financing? Charging me for stupid crap like etching the glass or wheel locks? Why won't most people talk to me about total price and insist on talking monthly payments without even noting the term? Why did I have to harass a finance guy to give me the 1.8% loan instead of the 2.0% loan he wanted to put me in because he thought I wanted a longer term without asking me if I did?  

There is a (perception anyway) of a culture of purposely confusing or misleading the customer in auto sales. That's why people always think they're getting scammed. I'd personally be perfectly happy ordering a car and paying sticker if I could sit at the computer with someone competent and order just what I wanted. No extra dealer add ons. No upselling me on crap. Just a chance to order a car with the options I want and have the dealer be honest about it. That's what's hard to find. 

The first part of your post, that's on the consumer to be educated. Having talked to your insurance about a quote before you get there, talked to your local bank/credit union about rates you qualify for. 

I know I have the credit to get the best rate, so I'll tell the dealership they can finance me, but I expect them to meet X.XX rate, or I'll use outside financing........again, they did it because they still get a bit for the referral.

mazdeuce - Seth said:

Part of the reason I haven't bought a turbo Transit van is because I don't want to deal with the emotional stress of dealing with a dealer about ordering one.

It's a business deal. The emotional component serves no purpose and the dealer doesn't control that, you do.

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

True enough. The pressure to sell you what is on the lot instead of ordering stuff usually comes down from management, not the salesperson. Car sales is a business, and like most businesses, the longer we sit on product the more we want it gone.  Am I happy when someone buys what we have on the lot? Yes absolutely because that means I get a paycheck that month. When we order stuff, we don't actually get paid until you take delivery of the vehicle. Personally I don't care as long as the customer leaves happy; whether I have to order something perfect or if we have something close enough on the lot. Happy customers come back, & tell their friends & family to come as well. I'm a firm believer that if you do the right thing, eventually your paycheck & your life will reflect that. As far as people expecting the prime rib & massage package, those tend to be the people who think we make 4-5k on each car deal. My last car deal made me $50 (before taxes) and I worked with them for 3 days to find the right vehicle. Husband was condescending & rude the entire process, convinced that I was just here to screw him over. People like that are unfortunately the norm, and also the reason why good people don't stay in this industry long enough for it to change. If someone does want to order something, I sell Toyota, Hyundai, Chevy, GMC, Cadillac, Buick, & several pre-owned lots. I will say that there are snakes at every dealership; although that usually has less of an effect on the customer and more on other sales people's paychecks

I can honestly say I've never had a truly unpleasant car shopping experience.  It comes down to remembering one thing:  except in extreme cases, they need your money worse than you need their car.  Odds are strong that there will be another dealership with a similar car within reasonable distance.  You have the power, so use it.  If you don't like what they're doing, walk.

I have worked with salespeople I liked better than others.  But I have never had one sell me something I didn't want.  It's up to the buyer to know what they want and what they're willing to pay in total before they sign.  If you can't be bothered to prepare yourself even that much, then you get what you deserve.

I do miss the days when ordering was the norm. 

MINI's were almost always custom ordered back in the R50/53 days.  The ex and I ordered our '07 R52 convertible to spec and got exactly what we wanted.  My 2003 VW TDI wagon was also a special order car as no dealer in the country had a diesel wagon with a 5 spd sitting on the lot back then.

MazdaFace - I'm sure all of here can appreciate being a car salesman can be a thankless job at times, but understand many negative attitudes are born from negative experiences of finding things inexplicably added to invoices and other slight-of-hand techniques to get more money out of a buyer.  The last car I bought from a dealer was from a Car Max type store. It was very straight forward with no B.S. fees added without a clear explanation. 

Whoever mentioned 'snakepit', thanks for triggering those flashbacks.  ;-)

There was a dealership in the area, now gone under and resurrected as part of a regional chain, that wanted our little cable company to bring them into the 21st century as far as networking / broadband access.  We were contracted to build it out, 100mb CAT5 switching, routers and cable modem, and during the process I got to watch the salespeople in action.  Suffice it to say, I was not impressed.  One specific know-it-all in the Cadillac sales was really happy when the network went live, as it sped up his porn viewing between whatever else he did there.  We knew of this, because his workstation faced into the main sales floor, and always had something displayed that would cause discomfort.  Another in the Chevy section kept trying to sell me something while I was trying to wire the cubicle farm.

No, I didn't buy anything from that place before it went under in a hail of lawsuits and rumors of drug dissipated owners.  The chain that eventually bought the property has proven several times that they will uphold the stereotype,  prime example when my daughter went in for a simple used car, and they discarded everything she wanted and tried upselling her to a package she couldn't possibly afford.  I took the daughter in hand, told the assembled sales / finance folks that they made pimps look respectable, and stormed out, never to return.

MazdaFace, I've met your kind in the dealerships, and I have a label for you:  endangered species.   My go-to saleslady at the Preston Autoplex has retired, twice, but if she shows up again, I'll work with her in a heartbeat.  Damned shame they don't sell Chevy Colorados...

In reply to MazdaFace :

I feel for you, but the experience is often lousy, and honestly, turning it around to suggest that it's the responsibility of the buying public to be cheerful and pleasant long enough to lure nice people into staying in auto sales seems backward. I know there are nice folks working in auto sales, and ordering our Mini wasn't bad, but the previous experiences with the Leaf and WRX were substantially unpleasant in unnecessary ways. I don't condone behaving rudely, because that just sucks, but at this point I'm going to be guarded at best, and that's just down to a combination of conventional wisdom *and* more importantly, personal experience.

Whether it's the management or the salesperson driving the approach, it sucks for the buyer, and that's why it's reasonable to try to avoid the whole thing. I'm assuming there's enough money being made on behaving badly toward the consumer to offset this deterrent effect (management's basing their decisions on the bottom line, right?). That is, enough people (more or less) have to buy cars that they can turn the screws on those people at a greater profit than behaving in a pleasant fashion and seeing an increase in business from folks who will eventually stop avoiding the car-buying process like the plague.