I just read the revised passing rules and which include the term "vortex of danger". So I am curious who else has read them and what is your reaction?
As someone who routinely pulls slide jobs on people I'm left with the impression this is no longer acceptable. Do note that I've never hit another car while executing this maneuver. If you are down on power this is very often the only option to complete a pass. Again just curious to see others takes on this.
Can you post it here or a link?
Under driver resources.
So you're talking about passes where you weren't able to get the bumper of your car up to the lead cars a-pillar during straight-line braking, and subsequently don't enter the leading drivers field of view until after they've already turned-in and committed to their racing line?
@driven5 Yes exactly, keep in mind I switched from SCCA to vintage racing which has far less tolerance for contact than SCCA.
It is possible to roll into a corner much faster, aggressively rotate the car to scrub off the extra speed and still be well clear of the car you passed. Call it slide job or block pass but it's possible to initiate after the other driver turns in, and most importantly, without contact.
I also get that a large majority of people club racing can't do this cleanly which is why the guidelines were put into place. Again I'm curious to other peoples thoughts and experiences.
Tom1200 said:@driven5 Yes exactly, keep in mind I switched from SCCA to vintage racing which has far less tolerance for contact than SCCA.
It is possible to roll into a corner much faster, aggressively rotate the car to scrub off the extra speed and still be well clear of the car you passed. Call it slide job or block pass but it's possible to initiate after the other driver turns in, and most importantly, without contact.
I also get that a large majority of people club racing can't do this cleanly which is why the guidelines were put into place. Again I'm curious to other peoples thoughts and experiences.
Is this basically dive bombing?
Ultimately, I suppose if you can pull off the pass without interfering with their line or speed through the corner, then its yours. If not, it's theirs and you need to back off. My interpretation is that's what these guidelines are really trying to reinforce.
I tried throwing some rough numbers at though, and I don't see how it could physically work as described. Assuming you have roughly 1 full second from turn in to complete the pass, starting with your front bumper aft of their a-pillar, you'd have to average 13+mph faster across that entire second after turn-in. That seems a bit much. So if indeed you're clean, the other driver is considerably over-slowing for the corner and/or their turn-in is is not happening when you think it is relative to your pass. However, if it's not either of those, then perhaps it's not as clean of a pass as you'd like to think. It's not just about you not hitting them, it's also about them not hitting you nor having to avoid you after committing to their line.
Granted, this is coming from a purely theoretical standpoint. If you could find something from youtube that you consider a good example of this done cleanly, it might help the uninitiated like myself.
I did a quick read of it. My first thought was how would it be enforced. Yes cars carry cameras and some GPS but are the stewards going to analyze a close incident down to the last inch?
At the Runoffs last year I was hit by a guy dive bombing me coming onto the front straight at VIR. Track camera footage clearly showed the incident and he was penalized. I was knocked roughly 30' off track by the contact. If I hadn't been there he would never have made the turn. This was a case of an over zealous driver at his first Runoffs. The next day I saw him go off track 5 times in 2 laps. I think this incident may have had some influence on the new interpretation, but it really is a clarification of what has always been the rule. " Responsibility of the overtaking driver".
Tom1200 said:I just read the revised passing rules and which include the term "vortex of danger". So I am curious who else has read them and what is your reaction?
As someone who routinely pulls slide jobs on people I'm left with the impression this is no longer acceptable. Do note that I've never hit another car while executing this maneuver. If you are down on power this is very often the only option to complete a pass. Again just curious to see others takes on this.
I don't have a problem with someone pulling a slide job on me if they can do it and I don't have to lift or check up. Don't slide up in front of me and brake check me then drive off. I raced circle track dirt cars for a long time and everyone thought they were Steve Kinser and would slide up in front of you and you have to lift or run over them. I kind of developed a habit of not lifting and dumped a couple of guys and they kinda learned. Granted a lot of dirt cars are beat to E36 M3 and people tend to take more chances. On a road course, I'll lift because I don't want to tear the nose off the car, but we will likely discuss the maneuver later.
Go to minute 13:35 in this video, it's where I make an inside pass of the camera car. It's not a slide job but would in theory be an issue under the new rule. Note in now way do I slow the other driver.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wtHvOwCJ1FY
@driven5 on the occasions I do this I enter the corner 3-5mph faster than the other driver, the act of rapidly rotating the car scrubs of that speed. You then end up 3 feet in front of the other driver traveling the exact same speed. You don't end up slowing them down but you do end up preventing them from picking up the throttle before you do........which is the point.
The other key is you can do slide jobs in tight or low speed corners the car doesn't have enough momentum to pull it off cleanly.
I consider dive bomb passes a giant no no and in 30 years racing I've never punted or shoved anyone out of the way.
That seemed a bit like a dive bomb. He had to slow, miss the normal turn in and apex to let you by. Thankfully he saw you
Not at all a dive bomb; notice he gets a much better run off the corner than I do. He didn't expect me there but he does a classic over under on the exit. I had to pinch the car on the exit so I lost a bunch of momentum. I know the other driver and we had a nice debrief after talking about who was stronger where.
Dirt racing is a whole lot different and road course or even asphalt circle track racing. That's part of the reason I quit running dirt. I got tried of fixing the fenders every week. I always tried to race people clean and not touch another car, but when you have talked to someone several times about stupid stuff, sometimes you have to show them your serious. I always wanted to run road courses, but when I was a kid I could see the local dirt track grand stands from my back yard so I built a dirt car.
Go to minute 27.4 of this video; the Formula Vee driver pulls a phenomenal slide job on me. It's great to be able to race other drivers like this. It was a fantastic and well executed pass for 4th overall.
It's not a rule saying you can't enter the vortex of danger, it's a guideline saying "if you do this and the leading car hits you, it's your fault bud."
Tom1200 said:Go to minute 13:35 in this video, it's where I make an inside pass of the camera car. It's not a slide job but would in theory be an issue under the new rule. Note in now way do I slow the other driver.
I can't say I agree that this would necessarily be an issue. In addition to leaving plenty of room, and not affecting the line or speed of the other car, I see nothing in the limited viewing angle of the video to indicate you were actually in violation of the letter or intent of the guideline.
On the other hand, as well executed of a maneuver as it might have been in that instance, I'm guessing that's exactly the type of 'high-risk' passing that the SCCA wants/needs to discourage.
I watched both videos and have absolutely no problem with either pass. I also have no issue with the passed driver having to alter his line slightly or use the brakes because the trailing car got by.
Am I taking crazy pills or was the FV 4 wheels off?
red_stapler said:It's not a rule saying you can't enter the vortex of danger, it's a guideline saying "if you do this and the leading car hits you, it's your fault bud."
This. I confess to not having gone to the effort of looking at the rule book itself but this appears to me to be a clarification of the existing rules.
I see nothing wrong with the pass in the first video. You were in his field of vision before he turned in. That's really what Appendix P is saying. If the car being passed can't see you on the inside before they turn in you better be prepared for them to turn all the way down to the apex.
In the second video my biggest issue is open wheel cars on the track with closed wheel cars. I don't like it when I'm in the close wheel car and I won't run an open wheel car with an organization that does that.
As far a the pass is concerned they had enough momentum that he was clear of you before he drifted across your nose. Not by much but he was clear.
@red stapler first am I aware it's a guideline to better define passing rules.
You are not on entirely on crazy pills, the FV has the inside half of the inside tires in the dirt. I'll give you just enough room to race but no more. I love that pass because I was defending really hard without moving all over the place and the FV driver worked on setting that pass up for three laps. It's how racing should be.
I do think the guidelines are a good idea, hopefully it will keep those people who lack judgment and ability from doing stupid things.
Mostly I wanted to see what other people thought.
@APEowner FV is normally in the small bore group which consists of mostly Spitfires & Spridgets. My Datsun 1200 is one of the biggest cars in the group. When there is a large group of Vees they get a staggered start. Vintage has a much different mindset than modern races. Contact can get you banned for a yeat.
As for the FV sliding up in front of me the exhaust protruding out the back of the car cleared my car by all of six inches. It was really well timed.
Maybe pulling the reins trying to avoid situations like this?
Matt I get why they are doing it. The guy in the Aston should have given room instead spinning themselves, if someone at this level get it's wrong then it's likely folks in lesser series like SCCA regional races will do this as well......so again I get it.
SCCA has had classes nicknamed Sports Rambo (Sports Renualt) and Spec Pinata......so yeah.
Tom1200 said:Matt those guys were actually side by so THAT incident would conform to the new guidelines.
So if I'm understanding correctly the guidelines are addressing a scenario IF the Mercedes in that video had rolled up hard on the inside of the Aston and caused the accident vice being side by side?
You'll need to log in to post.
