https://insideevs.com/news/708156/shell-closes-california-hydrogen-stations/amp/
This is bad news for all those in California who bought deeply-discounted Mirais (complete with fuel credits!) a couple years back.
The infrastructure for hydrogen was poor in the 1990s and it doesn't appear that it's improved much in the intervening decades, and this seems a blow to its future as a fuel source.
So bargains to be had by someone out of state who's near a source.
Does make me wonder though whether local welding shops might work out something. My local welding shop always has catering trucks there, filling their propane tanks.
Could they just buy one of these and berkeley the hydrogen stations?
In reply to MyMiatas :
Now just compress it to 10,000 psi. Not exaggerating.
Not that surprising, but still sad for Mirai owners. Always seemed like a ton of compromises vs. a BEV.
Well I guess that throws that out the window....
"Typical 35 MPa and 70 MPa H2 compressors cost $50,000- $140,000 each and consume 2-4 kWh/kg of electricity (compressing 20-350 bar) [5]. Hydrogen gas heats up when expanded requiring high pressure hydrogen chillers to precool before filling FCEV fuel tanks which cannot exceed 85 °C."
That's the myth about how wonderful hydrogen is: The end product is great, but making it costs more than if you used that same electricity to charge batteries or capacitors, and that's in addition to everything above. If people think E85 isn't net-positive, they should have a field day with hydrogen.
MyMiatas said:Well I guess that throws that out the window....
"...Hydrogen gas heats up when expanded ..."
what.
Time to start looking for challenge priced Mirai's for an engine swap and the challenge?
Apparently there have been almost 18,000 fuel cell vehicles sold/leased in the US since 2012.
I was surprised the number was that high. I'm sure that almost all of them are in California (because that's where the infrastructure is), but it's got to be hard to support 55 fueling stations in CA with what is likely only a couple of vehicles per day.
The actual notification from Shell emphasizes "Light Duty" stations. It sounds like they'll continue to support any commercial hydrogen stations (for now).
Piguin said:Time to start looking for challenge priced Mirai's for an engine swap and the challenge?
. I'd also recommend swapping suspension pieces. It's got a fairly soft ride - much more toward the plush side than the sporty side.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:MyMiatas said:Well I guess that throws that out the window....
"...Hydrogen gas heats up when expanded ..."
what.
I figured that was a mistake but check it out:
"Helium and hydrogen are two gases whose Joule–Thomson inversion temperatures at a pressure of one atmosphere are very low (e.g., about 40 K, −233 °C for helium). Thus, helium and hydrogen warm when expanded at constant enthalpy at typical room temperatures."
I mentioned the '90s earlier. Probably sometime around '98 or '99 I remember reading a magazine article (R&T, MT, C&D, Autoweek?) in which a couple journos were attempting to drive cross-country with an alternative-fuel vehicle. I think it was a Volvo wagon; for some reason I seem to recall that the fuel was hydrogen, though I suppose it could've been CNG. In any case, I seem to remember a photo of one of the journalists pointing a handgun at the car which was (again) out of fuel on the side of the road. The conclusion of the article was that AFVs were an interesting idea and may be worthwhile in and around certain cities but were certainly not justifiable for American-size road trips.
Unfortunately that doesn't seem to have changed a lot.
Hydrogen has at best seemed like a transitional technology to me. You have the massive pressures to which the gas is compressed, for one, which makes for a potential bomb in the event of a specific collision. Then you have the potential for hydrogen embrittlement of the fuel cell. There is also the fact that hydrogen is tiny: REALLY tiny. Despite our best efforts, it will still leak out of a vessel because hydrogen atoms can flow through interstitices.
Toyota pushing through the most recent Mirai seemed a very odd choice. James May apparently loves his; perhaps they have a better fueling infrastructure than we do, or perhaps it's just used for very nearby trips.
I do wonder if Toyota will step up to the plate: It promised new owners as recently as 2023 that they would receive free fuel and support, but that's going to be a hard promise on which to deliver if all the fueling points are gone.
The Mirai subreddit has a lot of unhappy owners in it - but apparently fuel station availability has been a problem for a while in SoCal. The Shell decision is more like "well, now we no longer have to wonder" than an actual loss. The cost of the fuel has gone up considerably in the last year. Also, there's a glimpse into the real-world fueling experience, with 5-10 minute pump recycle times between cars and stations that are waiting for truckloads of fuel. One discussion is about a 12 car line at one station, which translates into a couple of hours. There is talk of a class action suit against Toyota, but of course Toyota isn't responsible for the fueling stations. Neither are Hyundai or Honda, who also sell fuel cell vehicles.
Apparently (according to the Reddit sub) Europe (or select parts thereof) have much better H2 refueling infrastructure in terms of number of stations and uptime, but almost no H2 vehicles so it's not really getting used.
Brandonsmash, I'm pretty sure the embrittlement problem is handled using composite pressure vessels. I think new Mirai owners get a $15k fuel card.
BMW just annouced they are betting on Hydrogen... let's see how it plays out
In reply to mr2peak :
Yes they are. BMW and Toyota seem to be both in on hydrogen fuel cells. BMW told me that they're trying to push the commercial market to adopt the technology and they believe the passenger car market would follow. Apparently, this is what is happening in Europe, but the governments there are much more supportive of it.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:MyMiatas said:Well I guess that throws that out the window....
"...Hydrogen gas heats up when expanded ..."
what.
Really, no Joule-Thompson Effect cooling from the expansion pressure drop?
MyMiatas said:Well I guess that throws that out the window....
"Typical 35 MPa and 70 MPa H2 compressors cost $50,000- $140,000 each and consume 2-4 kWh/kg of electricity (compressing 20-350 bar) [5]. Hydrogen gas heats up when expanded requiring high pressure hydrogen chillers to precool before filling FCEV fuel tanks which cannot exceed 85 °C."
So... an electric car, with a different type of battery then? (adding in the electric Hydrogen generator).
Now, if you simply run both off of a huge Diesel generator.....
In reply to aircooled :
It's all about storing and releasing energy. Gas cars release energy that was stored over millennia, although we devote a bunch of energy to digging it up and refining it and trucking it around before putting it into a car and burning it. Then we deal with the byproducts of that burning. It's not very efficient, less than 50% of the actual energy gets used to move the car. But it's relatively easy to deal with as it's a liquid. There are a few other liquid fuels of varying levels of difficulty.
Since there's no handy H2 sitting around to pour into the tank, we need to create it by using energy - and it's really annoying to store for a bunch of reasons. And then we have to either burn the H2 or (far more common) use it to create electricity which is then stored in a battery to run an electric motor. So the H2 fuel cell cars are more of a series hybrid than an electric, but using a fuel that's a PITA and very expensive to make from an energy standpoint.
MyMiatas said:
And Keith posted :
In reply to MyMiatas :
Now just compress it to 10,000 psi. Not exaggerating
So I replied:
Well I guess that throws that out the window....
"Typical 35 MPa and 70 MPa H2 compressors cost $50,000- $140,000 each and consume 2-4 kWh/kg of electricity (compressing 20-350 bar) [5]. Hydrogen gas heats up when expanded requiring high pressure hydrogen chillers to precool before filling FCEV fuel tanks which cannot exceed 85 °C."
So on top of the $50850- $1400850 a individual would have to fork over more for a chiller to cool the Hydrogen down. And back in Middle School they made seem easy to make Hydrogen in Science class......
jharry3 said:Pete. (l33t FS) said:MyMiatas said:Well I guess that throws that out the window....
"...Hydrogen gas heats up when expanded ..."
what.
Really, no Joule-Thompson Effect cooling from the expansion pressure drop?
The inversion point where it switches from cooling to heating is well below room temperature. You can get it to cool from expansion if it's in an environment below like -100f. Oxygen cools from expansion until it reaches something like +1000f.
My apologies to the scientific community for using Fahrenheit.
brandonsmash said:I mentioned the '90s earlier. Probably sometime around '98 or '99 I remember reading a magazine article (R&T, MT, C&D, Autoweek?) in which a couple journos were attempting to drive cross-country with an alternative-fuel vehicle. I think it was a Volvo wagon; for some reason I seem to recall that the fuel was hydrogen, though I suppose it could've been CNG. In any case, I seem to remember a photo of one of the journalists pointing a handgun at the car which was (again) out of fuel on the side of the road. The conclusion of the article was that AFVs were an interesting idea and may be worthwhile in and around certain cities but were certainly not justifiable for American-size road trips.
Unfortunately that doesn't seem to have changed a lot.
Sounds similar to the documentary Long Way Up with the H-D electric motorcycles and Rivian prototype trucks (and diesel truck mounted diesel powered generators to connect the dots).
In reply to OHSCrifle :
Someone has to go first and start to develop the infrastructure. The gennies saved their bacon but it was neat to see an honest attempt.
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