Should we help our Granddaughter?

At 16 she's already finished High school and started college.   But while classes are free as are books, getting there is up to her.   
    For right now they are borrowing my truck.   It's about 5-7 miles one way I guess and no direct bus routes even close.   
    I'm looking and we can buy a new Chevy EV for a little over $20,500 after rebate ( Jan1) 

 or get a Nissan Leaf for about the same price with the rebate available now.  
    
   The Leaf has a range of 212 miles.   The Chevy 259 miles. 
  Payments on both will be in the $330 a month range  $0 dn 72 mo.    She works already for us and we could probably increase her hours enough to cover  the payments.  
 

Her long term goal is to be a doctor  ( obviously smart enough)  and something like this would get her through the 7 years of school and 2 of internship.  With minimum costs. 

5-7 miles one way?  Why spend $20k for that?  Spend 1/4 of that and get a solid reliable used car.

A cheap EV would be a great choice for this use, but look at used options rather than new - there's relatively little to break on them and there may be plenty of room for any repairs needed in the savings vs. new.

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

5-7 miles one way?  Why spend $20k for that?  Spend 1/4 of that and get a solid reliable used car.

This was my first thought too, but remember that pandemic pricing hasn't subsided completely, or evenly in all areas - remember that a few months ago, slightly used cars were actually worth more than new.

Used will still be a better value than new, but not by the traditional massive margins.

Talk to John Welsh about a used Toyota Prius ... Dont tie her for a bunch of years to a brand new car loan. 

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

5-7 miles one way?  Why spend $20k for that?  Spend 1/4 of that and get a solid reliable used car.

Have you priced solid used cars that don't need a whole bunch of work done?   
   Their owners got rid of it for a reason. Extremely rare it's because they want a Blue one or one to match their dress.   
     Most are sold because they need stuff done or fear stuff needs to be done soon.  
      Any used car you can be assured needs oil change and a bunch of neglected maintenance. 
     She ( and her father ) has zero mechanical skills so it's out of hand to fix .  
      I bought my daughters new cars ( they made payments)  the Saturn  my oldest  got lasted 20+ years ( with the original clutch that she learned on). And normal maintenance.  16 years of no payments very little repairs.  
   My 2nd daughter totaled her Toyota about 4 years in and has struggled ever since.    

I agree that something brand new may not be needed or even ideal here. But if you're determined to buy new, I'd go with the Bolt over the Leaf as the Leaf has less range and still relies on an air cooled battery pack.

But the Bolt also has relatively slow charging compared to lots of newer EV platforms. And it may suffer some serious depreciation over the next few years as a result. Especially since GM is switching to their new Ultium battery tech for all of their EVs. It will end up being a bit of a lame duck.

For the sake of flexibility, I'd consider a Gen2 Chevy Volt as well. Being PHEV, they'll give her options for what's powering the car. With a 53mile EV range, she'd never use gasoline for daily stuff but she'd have the ICE to handle longer trips if Med School or Residency end up being far away.

frenchyd said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

5-7 miles one way?  Why spend $20k for that?  Spend 1/4 of that and get a solid reliable used car.

Have you priced solid used cars that don't need a whole bunch of work done?   
   Their owners got rid of it for a reason. Extremely rare it's because they want a Blue one or one to match their dress.   
     Most are sold because they need stuff done or fear stuff needs to be done soon.  
      Any used car you can be assured needs oil change and a bunch of neglected maintenance. 
     She ( and her father ) has zero mechanical skills so it's out of hand to fix .  
      I bought my daughters new cars ( they made payments)  the Saturn  my oldest  got lasted 20+ years ( with the original clutch that she learned on). And normal maintenance.  16 years of no payments very little repairs.  
   My 2nd daughter totaled her Toyota about 4 years in and has struggled ever since.    

Then go ahead and buy her a brand new car. Put the car in her name and the loan under yours, this is how you really help her.

GameboyRMH said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

5-7 miles one way?  Why spend $20k for that?  Spend 1/4 of that and get a solid reliable used car.

This was my first thought too, but remember that pandemic pricing hasn't subsided completely, or evenly in all areas - remember that a few months ago, slightly used cars were actually worth more than new.

Used will still be a better value than new, but not by the traditional massive margins.

Better value only if you define that by lower first cost.  
   Remember an EV used for school commute and weekend jaunts  will cost her dad about $5 a month for electricity.  
an ICE will cost  her around $50 a month for gas.  
 Plus no oil changes, new tires, and cost of repairs.   
  A new car should last 20 years.  Mine, my wife's and my daughter's has.  So 14 years of reliable transportation without any real cost.  

STM317 said:

I agree that something brand new may not be needed or even ideal here. But if you're determined to buy new, I'd go with the Bolt over the Leaf as the Leaf has less range and still relies on an air cooled battery pack.

But the Bolt also has relatively slow charging compared to lots of newer EV platforms. And it may suffer some serious depreciation over the next few years as a result. Especially since GM is switching to their new Ultium battery tech for all of their EVs. It will end up being a bit of a lame duck.

For the sake of flexibility, I'd consider a Gen2 Chevy Volt as well. Being PHEV, they'll give her options for what's powering the car. With a 53mile EV range, she'd never use gasoline for daily stuff but she'd have the ICE to handle longer trips if Med School or Residency end up being far away.

That's a valid idea.   I'll have to check what the payments will be one of those.  

  People will need transportation all of their life.   
I tend to look long term for those solutions. 
 There will always be  better in the future but the problem needs a solution now.  

  Regarding the Volt / Leaf  choice.  I'm inclined to go with the Chevy.   I've heard the Nissan is just as slow to charge.   
   
    

Slippery said:

Talk to John Welsh about a used Toyota Prius ... Dont tie her for a bunch of years to a brand new car loan. 

I'll look at used Prius.   But the used car loans tend to be shorter so the payments get higher.  Interest rates are still pretty decent on new cars.   While higher on used.   
    That might be a decent short term solution.   I wonder if the battery on a used Prius can make that round trip in Minnesota Winters.  

frenchyd said:

GameboyRMH said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

5-7 miles one way?  Why spend $20k for that?  Spend 1/4 of that and get a solid reliable used car.

This was my first thought too, but remember that pandemic pricing hasn't subsided completely, or evenly in all areas - remember that a few months ago, slightly used cars were actually worth more than new.

Used will still be a better value than new, but not by the traditional massive margins.

Better value only if you define that by lower first cost.  
   Remember an EV used for school commute and weekend jaunts  will cost her dad about $5 a month for electricity.  
an ICE will cost  her around $50 a month for gas.  
 Plus no oil changes, new tires, and cost of repairs.   
  A new car should last 20 years.  Mine, my wife's and my daughter's has.  So 14 years of reliable transportation without any real cost.  

I'm not saying to get a used ICE car by any means, an EV or at most a hybrid is the way to go for these short trips. But you can save thousands, maybe $10k or more on a used EV that will need the same maintenance as a new EV - just routine stuff until its pack wears out after a decade or two of use.

Why don't you simply toss one of the seventeen $300 V12 drivetrains you have into the next Jag someone gives you and give her that?

Since you live up in The Tundra, I wonder if EV is perfect for you.  The cold is hard on range. 

However, since you are here on GRM, you are smarter than the average bear about the car market and used cars in general.   I might make a suggestion like a '01-'10 Focus just because the are cheap to buy and cheap to run.  But, you also live in rust country and boy does that era of Focus have magically disappearing rocker panels.  Oh, and, they are no longer cheap to buy either!!!  

Since I was called out, yeah, if could be a Gen2 Prius but it could be just about anything else too.  So, search your local market for something that presents itself as a "value" to you. 

Spending $5k on a 200k mile Prius could be a value for 44 mpg

Spending $3k on a 125k Buick 3800 could be a value even at 23 mpg (if it's not too rusty)

Spending $20k on an EV could be your value.  

But, back to EV and long term.  Since she is a college student, that is often a mobile and transition time.  Do you foresee that living in an apt or dorm in the future could be problematic for charging options?  

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I've  priced them.   With the higher interest rate and shorter loan period thay actually cost more per month.  
     Granted I'm just doing a quick check on line.   Haven't looked at Facebook etc.  however the prices I'm seeing on  used EV's are really close to new!!!! 

If looking at newer Prius, I would try to stay to Gen4s which means 2016 and newer.  The Gen3s are known for HG issues over 200k that I'd like you to avoid.  If really shopping new, the Corolla is now offered (for the past couple of years) as a Hybrid.  Generally the Prius drivetrain in a sedan (not the flashier styled (more awkward) Prius hatch.  The Corolla hybrid only comes in one spec which is low to medium on the trim level scale but that is how they make it Toyota's cheapest hybrid.  

They also offer a non-hybrid Corolla which will still get you like 38 mpg, just not 52 mpg in the hybrid but a cheaper sticker price.  Again, value determined by you.   

These hybrids above are not plug in.  Still require gas to charge the battery.  As such, cold temps does not hamper their travel but it might reduce their mpg a little for those coldest days.  

In Toyota-speak, the word Prime is used for partial EV (like Volt) where you plug in to get some travel on EV-only and when the electic is gone you travel via gas.  There is the Prius Prime and the Rav4 Prime

frenchyd said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

5-7 miles one way?  Why spend $20k for that?  Spend 1/4 of that and get a solid reliable used car.

Have you priced solid used cars that don't need a whole bunch of work done?   
   Their owners got rid of it for a reason. Extremely rare it's because they want a Blue one or one to match their dress.   
     Most are sold because they need stuff done or fear stuff needs to be done soon.  
      Any used car you can be assured needs oil change and a bunch of neglected maintenance. 
     She ( and her father ) has zero mechanical skills so it's out of hand to fix .  
      I bought my daughters new cars ( they made payments)  the Saturn  my oldest  got lasted 20+ years ( with the original clutch that she learned on). And normal maintenance.  16 years of no payments very little repairs.  
   My 2nd daughter totaled her Toyota about 4 years in and has struggled ever since.    

Yes, and I've bought several.  I bought a 2014 Prius C with 291k miles, but with detailed service records.  I've put 30k miles in 11 months on it and beyond needing a water pump, it's been flawless.  I got it cheap.  That's just one example.

I agree that bargains aren't as easy as they used to be.  No doubt.  At the same time, they can be found.  IMO, even if you have to pay $5000 for what should have been a $3700 car 3 years ago, you're still ahead of the curve.  Spend $25k on a new car now...what will it be worth in 3 years?

John Welsh said: if

Since you live up in The Tundra, I wonder if EV is perfect for you.  The cold is hard on range. 

However, since you are here on GRM, you are smarter than the average bear about the car market and used cars in general.   I might make a suggestion like a '01-'10 Focus just because the are cheap to buy and cheap to run.  But, you also live in rust country and boy does that era of Focus have magically disappearing rocker panels.  Oh, and, they are no longer cheap to buy either!!!  

Since I was called out, yeah, if could be a Gen2 Prius but it could be just about anything else too.  So, search your local market for something that presents itself as a "value" to you. 

Spending $5k on a 200k mile Prius could be a value for 44 mpg

Spending $3k on a 125k Buick 3800 could be a value even at 23 mpg (if it's not too rusty)

Spending $20k on an EV could be your value.  

 

But, back to EV and long term.  Since she is a college student, that is often a mobile and transition time.  Do you foresee that living in an apt or dorm in the future could be problematic for charging options?  

  

Good points all of them.  What years did Prius start with plug ins?  
        Next,   Regarding moving,  not for at least 2 more years.  A lot changes especially with electricity in 2 years.  Recently I'm seeing more and more city streets in Europe with parking meters and charging stations. As backwards as Americans tend to be.  Forward thinking Cities and enterprising people will see profit opportunity in those.  I mean they don't need to invent them.  

This is part of the interesting infrastructure question.  Will her living arrangement, now and projected, support charging?  I wonder how apartments, etc will manage this in the future other than the token one or two some of the upscale places have now.  I also wonder how on-street city parking will work.  Digressing a bit but while a noble idea, think through to make sure it will work.

Prius Prime wiki  Seems they were first offered in 2013.  They were initially made in small numbers and had a low take rate so rare on the used market.  They have also become very desirable and you know that means.  Expensive.  Again, value determined by you.  

In general, I think these Primes go about 40 miles on electric before they then convert to gas cars that get 52 mpg (and do not require Premium fuel, just the cheap stuff) 

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

frenchyd said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

5-7 miles one way?  Why spend $20k for that?  Spend 1/4 of that and get a solid reliable used car.

Have you priced solid used cars that don't need a whole bunch of work done?   
   Their owners got rid of it for a reason. Extremely rare it's because they want a Blue one or one to match their dress.   
     Most are sold because they need stuff done or fear stuff needs to be done soon.  
      Any used car you can be assured needs oil change and a bunch of neglected maintenance. 
     She ( and her father ) has zero mechanical skills so it's out of hand to fix .  
      I bought my daughters new cars ( they made payments)  the Saturn  my oldest  got lasted 20+ years ( with the original clutch that she learned on). And normal maintenance.  16 years of no payments very little repairs.  
   My 2nd daughter totaled her Toyota about 4 years in and has struggled ever since.    

Yes, and I've bought several.  I bought a 2014 Prius C with 291k miles, but with detailed service records.  I've put 30k miles in 11 months on it and beyond needing a water pump, it's been flawless.  I got it cheap.  That's just one example.

I agree that bargains aren't as easy as they used to be.  No doubt.  At the same time, they can be found.  IMO, even if you have to pay $5000 for what should have been a $3700 car 3 years ago, you're still ahead of the curve.  Spend $25k on a new car now...what will it be worth in 3 years?

You make good points You approach things different than I do, because I don't care what it's worth in 3 years.  I keep them for 20 years. Write the whole cost off as transportation.  My truck was about $100 a month average. My Wife's  Accord was slightly more than that.  And My Daughters Saturn was  closer to $35 a  month. 
 All have gone 20+ years. 
   The average car on the road is now something like 15 years old. 

For some help on determining your own value, I recommend https://www.fueleconomy.gov/

Use their compare feature.  It will provide you with annual fuel cost calculations over 15k miles at current fuel costs.  Or, you can customize the parameters for driving more/less or fuel costing more/less.  

I recommend this so you don't spend $10k more on a vehicle in a scenario where the mpg will only save you $750 per year.  Maybe even less if she drives less than 10k miles per year.  

The site will not factor maintenance but you're smart enough for that.  EV's dont need oil changes and older cars just need more than younger cars.  

Its all expensive for a student commuting a very short distance. Help her buy a scooter if she cannot bicycle 5 miles each way. They do 35 mph so that is a 7 minute commute. 

No. You should not go into debt to buy your grandaughter a car.

You should give her a cash budget you are willing to spend ($2k-$4k) and guide her in buying an inexpensive used car. 

This is what I did for my daughter. She ended up with a $4k Chevy Sonic that she still drives 5 years later. She takes very good care of the car because she knows the value of it and what it will take to replace it. 

Edit to add. My requirement for all of my kids was the first car had to have a manual transmission. This is for a couple of reasons. One, everyone should know how to drive a stick. Two, it's much harder to text and drive when you have to shift gears. Three, they have to pay attention to how the car sounds during normal conditions. 

Since Gen 2 Prius was mentioned above, here is the link to a thread which sort of became a Gen2 Prius Buyers Guide

Gen1 is '01-'03
Gen2 is '04-'09
Gen3 is '10-'15
Gen4 is '16- present