In reply to Joe Gearin :
Yeah, like 13mpg out of the E9x M3! My SUV does better than that!
Looks like an M2 would cost me $10-15k more than the 1M and it'll depreciate like a regular car, which the 1M won't. If I have to choose between the two, I'd take the 1M, its just a more special car.
In reply to maj75 :
My 5 year old will fit in the back no sweat. My 13 year old probably wouldn't be too happy about it. Wouldn't be a car I'd try to put the entire family in tho, so I could carry 1 kid and my wife, or me and both kids and it'd be fine.
I'm still waiting to hear back from the 996 turbo guy to find out when I can check it out. Dying here!
Sold my trailer today tho, so well on my way to getting the funds together for my next purchase!
docwyte said:Looks like an M2 would cost me $10-15k more than the 1M and it'll depreciate like a regular car, which the 1M won't. If I have to choose between the two, I'd take the 1M, its just a more special car.
Aside from rarity, what makes the 1M better? Marginally lighter, less power, slower, less grip (altough that could easily come down to tires). Does that 150 pound weight savings make it drive differently?
I'm under the impression that kids don't stay the same size for very long. Right now, your 13 yo wouldn't really fit in the cars you're considering, and that situation is only going to get worse as both kids grow.
It really seems like you've wanted a 911 or small BMW for a long time. You haven't seriously considered anything else in this thread or any other recent thread. Deep down you have to know that neither one is going to be good at kid transport (especially long term as the kids continue to grow), but you're trying to convince yourself, or the better half that it could kind of work enough to justify the purchase. The kid hauling requirement just seems kind of silly since it's barely adequate now, and will be less and less adequate over the next couple of years. If kid hauling is truly important for this vehicle, just get something with a useable backseat. Or, be honest with yourself and admit that it's really not important and you just want a 996t
I don't know about your kids, but I thought it was cool riding in a 911 and was happy to ride even in the back well into my teen years. I was neither a football or basketball player, though.
In reply to STM317 :
I have something that hauls kids, it's my GX470, it's also my winter car, ski machine, tow vehicle, off roader and general hauler. I don't need something whose sole duty is to haul kids. I want a fun car that'll haul a$$ and have space for kids for the next few years. People are throwing out good cars, but I don't need or want a large 4 door sedan like a Chevy SS, or a CTS-V. That's not what I'm looking for this role. While those cars will go to the track, they're not going to be nearly as much fun as something smaller.
My son will fit in the back seat of a 911 for quite a few years to come. My daughter will fit in the back of the 1M now and will for another few years (she's petite) until it doesn't matter, as she'll get her license in 3 years and won't want to (or need to as much) ride around with me. If I'm going to haul the entire family, I'll take the GX470. I just need something that if I have to pick up both kids, I can. I couldn't do that with my '98 M3 because of the rollbar and clearly can't on my motorcycle. Well, I could carry 1 kid but my mother in law would kill me!
I want a car with back seats that'll be fun. So snappy throttle response, good handling, good power (350hp+, FI preferred), usable back seats for my kids and that won't suck on the track for the 3-4 days that I go. Something that isn't going to depreciate thousands of dollars, as I'm only going to be driving it 3-4000 miles a year.
That kinda knocks out new(er) cars like an M2, or a GT350, or the Chevy Z28 (as awesome as the Z28 is).
The performance of the M2 and 1M is very close, difference is the 1M is going to appreciate sitting in my garage while the M2 is going to depreciate sitting in my garage. Plus the M2 is $10-15k more to purchase, so really, after 3-5 years including depreciation, the M2 could easily cost me $30-40k MORE than the 1M.
docwyte said:The performance of the M2 and 1M is very close, difference is the 1M is going to appreciate sitting in my garage while the M2 is going to depreciate sitting in my garage. Plus the M2 is $10-15k more to purchase, so really, after 3-5 years including depreciation, the M2 could easily cost me $30-40k MORE than the 1M.
Sure, I'm not trying to talk you into an M2, if the 1M makes more financial sense then it makes sense to buy that.
What I'm asking is why everyone thinks the 1M is going to appreciate? Lots of people seem to think that, and I get that they're somewhat uncommon, but they made over 6000 of them so it's not like they're rare. They're very similar (but slightly inferior) in specs to the M2, and they don't even have the bespoke M motors of cars like the E30, E39, or E46. So... I don't understand why?
In reply to codrus :
Nobody latches on to "special editions" or the idea that a vehicle is "the last of it's kind", or "the true successor to the great______" quite like Porsche and BMW guys. I guess they're rabid enough, or stubborn enough that used values can avoid a lot of depreciation. The 1M was heralded as the "next great collector car" by pretty much everybody upon release, and I think it became a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy. People bought it thinking it would be super valuable so they refuse to drop prices, and second hand buyers heard it enough to accept it as truth, so it is.
Meanwhile, a Z/28 (that beats the 1M around Laguna Seca by 5 sec/lap, and has production numbers that are less than half of the 1M) depreciates 30% in 3-4 years because Camaro buyers understand that a better one is always on the horizon. Or because people have preconceived notions about badges and say "yeah, but it's just a Camaro."
In reply to codrus :
They only brought 739 1M's to America. That alone made it a collectible, far less examples than the E30 M3 for instance. It was crowned a cult car right out of the gate and sold for over sticker new. I get that driving it isn't all that special but neither is driving the E30 M3.
Prices just haven't dropped at all in the last 7 years on them, most are selling for over brand new sticker price now. Whether that's a self fulfilling prophecy as STM317 says, it's hard to say. It's quite possible that's he's 100% correct, but that's been the trend for the past 7 years and I don't see that changing on them.
STM317, the reason why the Z28 has depreciated like that *is* because it's just a camaro *and* because Chevy is going to make something better. Did Chevy really only sell 360 Z28's? Because that's half the USA 1M production. Seems like there are far more than that out there.
In other news, I did hear back from the 1M owner and he's unwilling to sell me the car without the suspension and 2 piece front brake rotors on the car. That makes me unhappy as I don't want either of those things, don't want to pay him for them and don't want to deal with taking them off and trying to sell them myself. I think there's very little market for the brake rotors, who buys used 2 piece brake rotors? And if they do, they're not going to be willing to pay 50% of new for them...
So, beginning to think that particular 1M isn't for me, which is a shame, since its local and the initial stock price he offered to me was fair.
Used 15-17 Mustang GT track pack.
Add some better pads/fluid/tires, keep the extra $30k in the bank?
It's pretty clear you want the 1M, so go for it!
In reply to docwyte :
under 3000 Z/28s globally vs over 6000 globally for the 1M.
Yes, the Z/28 is "just" a Camaro, in the same way that the 1M is "Just" a lowly 1 series. Chevy has made a better performing car (the ZL-1) since the Z/28 was sold. BMW has made a better performing car (the M2) since the 1M was sold. The only difference is that you see the BMW badge as superior and therefore hold it in higher regard. But, as the market shows you're clearly not the only one that thinks Camaros are "just a Camaro" while a slower, more common BMW has more prestige.
In reply to STM317 :
Yeah, I get where you're coming from with that. There's no doubt that the Z28 is a crazy good machine, I also didn't realize how few were made. You're totally right that the Z28 should be considered more of a cult classic than it is, particularly based on the rarity of it.
I don't think the performance difference between the M2 and the 1M is all that great tho. In reading the magazines and all when they compared the two, they deemed the M2 a better car but it didn't walk all over the 1M performance wise. I'll call my local dealer and see if they have one on the lot I can check out. It's worth at least looking at one, especially since the 1M guy wants to sell me his car setup a way I don't want and at a price that isn't all that different than the M2.
The NEW M2 is a different machine then the outgoing model.
The new one actually gets a proper S motor, it's basically all the running gear from the M3/4, in the smaller 2 series package, with the engine a touch downtuned.
I'd be all over a Camaro if I could actually see out of one. Makes sense on paper, but feels like sitting in a bunker.
In reply to z31maniac :
The 2019's? I called my local dealer, they have one inbound but aren't sure of an ETA. I'll have to do some more reading on them. Just for curiosities sake I went to the BMW National website and checked out the classifieds there. There's actually a pretty tasty looking M2 on the site with some nice Dinan upgrades done to it. Called and emailed the guy, waiting to hear back.
Wouldn't be a bad deal, new enough car that its under warranty still, but will save the initial depreciation hit. I've always bought well used cars from out of state and that's where I've gotten hosed. Buying a basically new car that's still under warranty from out of state, I shouldn't have those issues. Just have someone look it over for me to make sure its cosmetically solid...
docwyte said:In reply to STM317 :
I also didn't realize how few were made. You're totally right that the Z28 should be considered more of a cult classic than it is, particularly based on the rarity of it.
My last post was based on a Road and Track article that claimed "planned production" would be 2500-3000. GM hasn't been very forthcoming with production data that I can find, but there's a forum member that's been tracking production numbers, and he claims that in March of this year GM broke it down for him as follows:
"There were a total of 515 2014 Chevrolet Camaro Z28s produced. 233 were (GBA) Black, 122 were (GAZ) White, 96 were (G7C) Red Hot, 34 were (GLJ) Ashen Gray and 30 were (GAN) Silver Ice Metallic.
As for the 2015 model, 1,292 were produced. Out of those 1,292 553 were (GBA)* Black, 50 were (GAN) Silver Ice Metallic, 331 were (GAZ) Summit White, 223 were (G7C) Red Hot and 131 were (GLJ) Ashen Gray. **(edit: CTF cars: 1 Black, 1 Red, 1 AGM, 1 White, no Silver CTF, numbers edited to reflect Production car totals without CTF for 2015). "
So that's just over 1800 ever made. You get an NA LS7, a real manual trans, and carbon ceramic brakes. It will run all day without overheating or de-rating power from turbos. No worries about long term reliability of direct injection. No electric steering. It's got all the makings of a future classic, but for whatever reason prices have fallen. You can get it serviced at any Chevy dealer which gives you thousands more options than you'd have with a BMW or Porsche. If I were looking for $40-50k toy cars that won't depreciate very much, it would be very high on my list.
I'm not expecting to sway you of course. Believe it or not, I have no dog in this fight. You're a German car guy, and you've got your heart set on a couple of very nice ones. I just wouldn't pigeon hole yourself by discounting some really, really capable and rare machines because of the badge.
docwyte said:In reply to z31maniac :
The 2019's? I called my local dealer, they have one inbound but aren't sure of an ETA. I'll have to do some more reading on them. Just for curiosities sake I went to the BMW National website and checked out the classifieds there. There's actually a pretty tasty looking M2 on the site with some nice Dinan upgrades done to it. Called and emailed the guy, waiting to hear back.
Wouldn't be a bad deal, new enough car that its under warranty still, but will save the initial depreciation hit. I've always bought well used cars from out of state and that's where I've gotten hosed. Buying a basically new car that's still under warranty from out of state, I shouldn't have those issues. Just have someone look it over for me to make sure its cosmetically solid...
Yep.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a19843326/2019-bmw-m2-competition-info-specs-photos-release/
Hmmm, might be worth waiting for but patience was never my strong suit! I'm checking out a 2002 Porsche 911 Turbo on Thursday morning, that afternoon I hope to drive an M2 but unfortunately not a 6MT, the dealer only has DCT's. It should still give me an idea of how they drive and if I want to pursue the one I found out of state that is a 6MT.
STM317, I think I'll also see if I can find a Z28 locally to check out. I've never even sat in a modern camaro, I'm curious to see if I fit...
If I was you I would contact this guy and go check the car over. It sucks that its a tiptronic, but it might work to your advantage if you actually like how it drives.
In reply to Slippery :
BAT has turned into, "let's pay higher than the next guy even if I'm over paying!".
yupididit said:In reply to Slippery :
BAT has turned into, "let's pay higher than the next guy even if I'm over paying!".
Doc knows the cars and what they are worth, I am sure he would offer up to what he thinks its worth. Plus being a tiptronic, it might not find the offers that a 6 speed would.
Not everything on BAT sells for crazy money, a bunch of cars fail to meet reserve and there are some that actually go for a bargain. Those aren't the ones that get forwarded around on social media, though.
If I lived somewhere with lots of traffic like LA, I might consider a tiptronic, especially since the values for them are much lower.
But I just can't do it, I want, no need a 6MT.
I'm checking out a local PCA'ers 996 Turbo today and two more tomorrow. So I think between the three of those, if I decide I want a 996 Turbo I should be able to get one
docwyte said:I'm checking out a local PCA'ers 996 Turbo today and two more tomorrow. So I think between the three of those, if I decide I want a 996 Turbo I should be able to get one
What does it take to convert one?
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