How do you properly bleed a MK60 in a stand alone install?
How do you properly bleed a MK60 in a stand alone install?
mr2peak said:How do you properly bleed a MK60 in a stand alone install?
There used to be a BMW tool suite that included a tool called INPA floating around on the internet. Bimmergeeks used to host a download for it. Seems like BMW are unhappy that people are using it or something because there is a note on the website talking about taking it down due to legal actions? I'm not sure. You may be able to still find it out there. Or I believe there are some other tools that perform similar functions.
If using INPA (which is all in German, so you do a lot of translating), you can run a bleed job pretty easily. If you look up youtube videos of people bleeding ABS on an E46 M3, its the same procedure as having the whole car plugged in, so long as you installed the OBD2 plug on your wiring harness.
The other method that I've used with great success on other cars/ABS is to just bleed the car like normal, take the car around the block and engage ABS a few times. The brakes will get sponge-y. Bleed again and the ABS unit is usually fully bled at that point. I recommend repeating 1 more time just to be certain, but you can tell when more bleeding is needed because the pedal will be soft after ABS is engaged.
In reply to 12GS :
mr2peak said:How do you properly bleed a MK60 in a stand alone install?
My foxwell scanner runs full diagnostics and will intependently bleed each corner on my standalone install.
Sold my non-M mk60, yaw sensor and pressure sensors out of that peach of an e46 convertible shell, to Mr SickSpeedMonte, so maybe we'll see some more feedback on the performance of a non-M unit (though I didn't ask what his application was).
In reply to 12GS :
Going back to the converter you used for the passive hubs...
By chance did you use the Speed Sensor Adapter V2 from SIRHC Labs?
In reply to CTholl :
https://happycactusgarage.com/products/mk60-companion
This is the new one I'm currently working on installing/testing.
I haven't read through the thread yet, but I'll try to do a brain dump/link dump on the mk60e5 at some point tonight.
In reply to accordionfolder :
Hey look, that's me!
I designed that because the ABS on my MR2 Spyder was hot garbage, but the wheel speed sensors (particularly in the front) were difficult/impossible to convert to Hall effect.
Works great on my Spyder! A handful of them have gone out for beta testing on other cars!
Should work with anything with VR wheel speed sensors and close to the original 48 teeth/rev. Supports Mk60, MK60e1, and MK60e5, plus some other helper functionality like inverting the brake switch signal, and controlling the fault light (the e1/e5 have no fault light output).
In reply to Matthew Kennedy :
Nice! That's awesome! This could shake up the market for early C5s. I recently ditched my failing ABS on my 99 C5 and I'm undecided if I like running without, the car won't be back on the track till March.
Ok, I'm definitely adding this to MonZora. Gonna keep my eyes open for the right donor at my local PnP. It's got C4 front wheel speed sensors and C5 rears. Same VR sensors, same tooth count.
Gents, I'm looking for some help on identifying the proper MK60 module to use. Looking on eBay part numbers vary and there seems to be quite a few options that claim to be for the e46.
Some help would be appreciated, I'm not a euro guy at all.
You need the M3 MK60.
You're better off getting a mk60e5 to work, mk60 now has a much higher price due to race class rules and M3 prices rising.
I've been looking for a few extras for some local race cars. Old vendor (RHT Motorsports) will only sell MK60 with a custom flash now for race use, too hard to find them to sell them for normal projects. That adds ~$1800 to the cost from what I remember.
Is there a better version of the e5 or are they all the same? The e46 mk60 has preferred part numbers that can be refreshed to m3 csl specs, is the mk60e5 similar? The early e90 versions had issues with the brushes for the pump sticking & the design of the unit made it very difficult to remove the pump for service.
In reply to Caperix :
Sorry, I haven't had a chance to put together a brain/link dump. But ther place to start is here:
CTholl said:In reply to 12GS :
Going back to the converter you used for the passive hubs...
By chance did you use the Speed Sensor Adapter V2 from SIRHC Labs?
No. The SIRHC Labs adapter is a true Hall Effect converter. Everyone calls the MK60 Active hubs Hall Effect, but they really aren't.
Hall Effect is variable voltage (switching between 5v and GND in most cases). The MK60 uses Magnetic Reluctance (MR) sensors. MR is variable current. They aren't interchangeable unfortunately.
I, and Matthew above, both made our own custom circuit boards that convert VR to MR. Mine doesn't do E5, but is able to be buried/hidden within the harness, but I currently am not planning on selling my converter by itself, only installed in harnesses (I mostly sell MK60E1 kits that have the unit, yaw sensor, and wiring harness). So if you want to DIY it, definitely buy the Happy Cactus Garage one.
Caperix said:Is there a better version of the e5 or are they all the same? The e46 mk60 has preferred part numbers that can be refreshed to m3 csl specs, is the mk60e5 similar? The early e90 versions had issues with the brushes for the pump sticking & the design of the unit made it very difficult to remove the pump for service.
People have figured out how to put CSL configs on the non-preferred part numbers as well. You are also able to flash any e5 to the specs of any other e5. It's not "easy", but it's definitely not hard either.
As far as I know, no one has actually found a difference in performance between the different e5 part numbers, and I'm still skeptical that the e46 MK60 part numbers have any performance difference also, but I haven't tested that theory.
12GS said:Ah, wiring ... Wiring isn't as scary as some people think it is. If I can figure it out, you probably can too. There are a couple ways you can go about it -
- Method 1 - Junkyard method. You can run to a junkyard and cut pigtails of connectors out of E46s and use butt splices to connect the old OEM wiring to your new wires to add length. I recommend a good crimp vs using solder as solder gets brittle and can crack and cause intermittent connection issues in an automotive environment. Also make sure that all connections are well isolated with heatshrink or electrical tape so that you don't end up with any short circuits.
- Method 2 - Build a fully custom wiring harness. This honestly isn't as daunting as some people may think. You really just need 1 tool to be able to effectively crimp pins/contacts onto wires (I use this one - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071KFLY43/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1). I recommend just buying the MK60 connector kit from Tulay's (https://tulayswirewerks.com/product/teves-mk60-abs-connector-kit/). If you want to save a little bit of money, you can research and find the part numbers for all of the pins and connectors, but it's not very easy, and even with the part number the parts can be hard to find. Also, Kevin Tulay seems like a good dude in the couple times we've interacted, so I want to support him.
- Method 3 - You can pay someone to build you a wiring harness. This definitely isn't as GRM as the other ways, but if you have the cash and aren't super confident in your abilities, this is always an option. Doug Wardell with RacingHarnessTechnologies is the big name for these swaps. I also sell harnesses at a slightly cheaper price than Doug if someone needs help, but I'm not trying to make it a business.
One other note if you've never done wiring before - All connectors are marked with a pin number/letter somewhere on the connector body (It can be difficult to read and/or identify sometimes, but it's there. Also, every pin may not be marked, but enough are marked to get the gist of it). So when the below chart says use pin 32 of the main MK60 connector, check the back of the connector and voila, pin 32 is marked clearly.
Most of the above chart is self explanatory. I crossed out some things that aren't very useful. The CANbus wires that I crossed out can technically be used if you have a lot of other E46 parts installed and connected to the CANbus also, but otherwise, you might as well just leave them out. You can also leave out the handbrake and DSC switch wires in a standalone application.
The OBD2 connector only needs 12V, Ground, and the TXD pin from the MK60 to communicate properly. You don't necessarily need the OBD2 port, but it's useful for diagnosis as the MK60 can throw codes and you can use the OBD2 port to read them using a cable like this - Amazon Link. You don't have to use this one specifically, but it needs to support BMW KLine.
Pins 8, 10, 12, and 14 are digital wheel speed outputs. Not sure why 12 and 14 aren't marked on this picture, but pin 12 is Front Right and pin 14 is Front Left. DO NOT connect the signal directly from the wheel speed sensors into a datalogger or other system. You will mess up the signal and break the ABS. You want to use these outputs from the ABS instead.
Pin 9 is the brake fluid level switch signal. If you have one of those on your car, connect it up. If not, just connect this pin to ground so that the ABS thinks the level is always full.
Pins 1, 16, 32, and 47 are all 30A circuits, so they need fairly large gauge wire. OEM is ~14awg (it's german so they use weird metric wire, but it's roughly 14awg), so that's what I recommend using. I've seen some other off-the-shelf harnesses use smaller wire, but I personally wouldn't risk it. Pin 1 and 32 both need to have their own dedicated 30A fuse. 16 and 47 can be tied together at ground. The rest of the wires can be 20awg or 22awg, whichever one you want to use.
Pin 44 is the Malfunction Indicator Lamp (or MIL) pin. This basically pulls to ground when the MK60 is in a good state, and goes to open if its in a fault state and won't function properly. This can't handle high current lights like incandescents, but a 12v LED should be fine directly off of it. You can also use a MOSFET or something like that as a switch to drive a higher current light if you want (which is what some off-the-shelf harnesses do for you).
Lastly is pin 41, the brake light switch. I've seen some people say this isn't necessary. It may not be, but most people recommend its hooked up. You need to make this one so that the pin is connected to ground when the brake pedal is pressed, and is an open circuit when the pedal is not pressed. There are a few ways to go about this. Let me know if you need help with that.
Otherwise, make sure that the things that are marked with a * on the chart are twisted with their pair. This will help reduce noise on the line and will make sure the ABS performs properly.
I wrote this up quick, so I'm sure I missed something. Let me know if you have any questions.
Do you have that same pinout sheet for the MK60E5?
How did it come about that the MK60 module was discovered to be so easy to retrofit? Someone tried it and it worked or were there other clues?
I ask partly because I am curious about the ABS module that came on the late model Mopars. I started looking at them only to try and feed a speed signal to a G3 swap PCM so the OEM cruise control functions could be retained, but after reading this thread and others I noticed the visual similarity between the modules and discovered they are an different version (MK25e) from the same manufacturer. So now I am wondering if the MK25e could be used in a similar way.
Best I can tell, there is some network input with the MK25e as the '08-'10 SRT8 models had a 3 mode ESP setup that appears to be triggered via a network message starting with the cluster. And they do have a steering angle input that is also via the network. But the dynamic sensor is separate like the MK60. And the MK25e incorporates internal pressure sensors like the MK60e5, so no need for external pressure sensors and it doesn't use a break booster sensor or brake pedal travel sensor. There is still a brake light input, though.
No idea how the MK25e would perform on the track, not saying it would make a worthwhile parallel to the MK60 swap. And I would bet the ESP disable messages would need to be incorporated somehow to make it better. Although there is a module for the Challengers/Chargers with the MK25/MK25e that disables the dynamic sensor to duplicate the ESP off mode which kind of seems to imply that it would function without the sensor.
I am sure someone smarter than I will see clues in this and recognize a bad idea faster than I am. But thought I would ask if any of the experts on the MK60 swap had any background on how the MK60 rose to the top and the pitfalls of trying to use something like the MK25e setup.
Thanks.
So I completed my MK60 swap recently.
Hopefully I'll have a video on my YouTube channel within the next few weeks. The video is rather long, 40+ min. It covers making a harness from scratch. Installing wheel speed sensors on my 1992 Camaro. & A bunch of other stuff.
I've been running around testing the system. And so far it's looking to be a game changer. The Braking G forces aren't quite as high as non ABS, but the average ABS G force spread across the braking zone is a night and day difference. I can brake as hard as I want and the system barely goes off, maybe 1 tire might activate. It's pretty neat. not turning 315 A052s into octagons is a hell of a benefit.
https://m.youtube.com/@3rdGenGuy/videos
The full Motorsports flash will raise those peak braking forces. But it's a lot of money,
mr2peak said:The full Motorsports flash will raise those peak braking forces. But it's a lot of money,
This is a total lie. I have yet to see back to back results that actually prove this. I have only ever seen people claim this that have annecdotal evidence from two completely different days, on different tires, with different conditions. See my long post on page 2, which is the only back to back testing of Motorsports vs OEM that has happened (as far as I'm aware) and been publicized.
In reply to 12GS :
It is possible, but only if the OEM system is isolating pressure increases before reaching peak mu of the tire-road interface. I have seen that on one program I worked on about 20 years ago.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to 12GS :
It is possible, but only if the OEM system is isolating pressure increases before reaching peak mu of the tire-road interface. I have seen that on one program I worked on about 20 years ago.
I'm not saying it's impossible. Sure, if the OEM undershot the max design criteria and the motorsports software actually changed that, then yes, the performance of maximum straight line braking could be different between the two. But it's not. I'm saying in this case it is a lie that's been sold to way too many people for thousands of dollars each and no one has actually tested until I did. They just took the sales pitch at its word, and I'm trying to correct that wrong.
I'll also add that I have personally dug through the software loaded on a motorsports unit, and much of it (I hesitate to say all of it, but definitely a large majority) is still exactly the same as was loaded onto it from the factory (a bit for bit match to an OEM unit).
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