Sticker shock at the gas pump!

This is all an issue with energy prices, not specifically gasoline. A very large part of electricity generation in the developed world comes from burning various fossil fuels (some cleaner than others, but still...). The same fossil fuels that we burn in our transportation and manufacturing processes. The prices of these fuels are interconnected, so when oil/gas prices rise due to market speculation, demand for coal rises and increases the price of that fossil fuel. Charging your EV will likely cost more because the fuel used by your utility company probably costs more. Things that use energy intensive processes to manufacture will go up. Shipping will increase.

The best way to mitigate these impacts is to reduce consumption however you can and transition as much as possible away from fossil fuels. This benefits on a national scale and an individual scale. With enough renewable energy production, a nation doesn't have to rely on shady countries or global cartels to keep the lights on or stay warm in winter. And they don't have to choose between using a limited resource to fuel vehicles or make things like steel. It's better for national security and the environment at the same time.

And that extends to the individual level as well. If you buy fewer things, you won't be as impacted by higher prices. The less you drive, the less fuel prices matter. When you do drive, try to drive more efficient vehicles, combine trips, avoid the skinny pedal as much as you can. If you want to drive something inefficient for any reason, that's fine but don't complain about how much it costs.

Insulate your house, turn the thermostat down, look into alternative energy options that might be a good fit for your area. Reduce your impact on the planet, and you'll also reduce the impact that consumer goods have on you.

Energy independence is the key to avoiding all of this. But that's going to require change and adopting new tech.

bobzilla said:

In reply to Chris_V :

Well, I'm not using a vehicle with crap economy, and the worst of the fleet gets used about once a month.A tank of fuel typically lasts 6-8 weeks. It holds a whopping 25 gallons. It's averaging 21+mpg highway and 18-19 if I have to use it for work. Just because it's a larger truck doesn't make it a gas guzzler. 

So how is a vehicle that isn't being used affecting fuel prices again? 

As soon as you DO use it, it affects gas prices. And if you aren't using it, you don't need to complain about gas prices, right?

I wish someone would tell our local electric companies that they aren't raising costs, because we are seeing it in the monthly statement. Unless I am makin that up too. 

Have your electrical costs per kWh gone up over 300 percent in the last two months due to global increases in demand and global decreases in supply? No? Ok, then. The prices are not set by global commodities traders based on supply and demand and worldwide unrest. And again, MY use of an EV doesn't change YOUR rates or utility bill by one red cent and will not. But every time we fill up our cars with gas, REGARDLESS OF FUEL MILEAGE, we increase demand, increasing the pricing for everyone as long as SUPPLY stays constant or drops. Which is what's happening.

Duke said:

In reply to alfadriver :

Considering the bath most of them took in '20 and '21, I don't really blame them.

 

They all made up 2020 in 2021.  Let alone they all had enough money to survive the pandemic like most other companies were able to.

So you are ok with them making tons of money on your gas bills?   People here are all complaining of paying more at the pump, and to justify that oil companies just don't make enough money is, well, I'm not sure I accept that reason.  This degree of price rise didn't happen when the West invaded Iraq 20 years ago- who is also a major oil producer.

In reply to Chris_V :

Dude, please dial it down. Every single one of us has stuff we don't really need, and most of it impacts everyone around us. 
 

Sports cars and race cars are even more useless than trucks. 

STM317 said:

This is all an issue with energy prices, not specifically gasoline. A very large part of electricity generation in the developed world comes from burning various fossil fuels (some cleaner than others, but still...). The same fossil fuels that we burn in our transportation and manufacturing processes. The prices of these fuels are interconnected, so when oil/gas prices rise due to market speculation, demand for coal rises and increases the price of that fossil fuel. Charging your EV will likely cost more because the fuel used by your utility company probably costs more. Things that use energy intensive processes to manufacture will go up. Shipping will increase.

This is often mitigated by the fact that as you charge an EV overnight, it (along with others doing that) actually make the power plants more efficient, reducing costs. As we transition away from coal (it's now under 19% of energy production) the fluctuations in pricing drop off, as well. As you mentioned, increasing alternative sources of generation increase stability and keep prices from fluctuating (solar and wind have not fluctuated at all, even with this Ukrainian problem), as does regulation in most parts of the country (where pricing is regulated to not change by more than a couple percent over time).

The best way to mitigate these impacts is to reduce consumption however you can and transition as much as possible away from fossil fuels. This benefits on a national scale and an individual scale. With enough renewable energy production, a nation doesn't have to rely on shady countries or global cartels to keep the lights on or stay warm in winter. And they don't have to choose between using a limited resource to fuel vehicles or make things like steel. It's better for national security and the environment at the same time.

Yup. Especially for national security. How we let a major national security commodity become publicly traded and at the mercy of global speculators is beyond me. All through the 1950s, 60s and 70s US Presidents exercised controls over prices. There’s a law authorizing it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Stabilization_Act_of_1970  Unfortunately for some people, that reeks of socialism. Even as they complain about the free market economy hurting their wallets.

SV reX said:

In reply to Chris_V :

Sports cars and race cars are even more useless than trucks. 

I said as much. I'm not complaining about pricing and saying "but I'm not the cause of it!" like certain people are. Look at EXACTLY what I was responding to before you start telling me off.

In reply to Chris_V :

I've already pointed out earlier that this is costing us $30/week extra for our Rios. I goes to $6 that's $50/week. So I can't complain about gas prices? 

You Stated that elecric prices don't change. I showed you that you were not correct for everyone.  Now you changed he goalposts. Again. 

I'm done. No one should ever have anything unless state approved and you can't complain about it cutting into your livelihood ever because you might own something not approved. Got it. Where do I join the breadline? You "win". Congratulations. Way to make a E36 M3 situation E36 M3tier with your typical attitude. 

In reply to bobzilla :

We've had our disagreements before, but I will be open with you on my observations and take on this thread. 

I interpreted Yupididit's post about a bigger truck as a joke playing off your comment about not feeling "manly" just because you were driving a truck.

Obviously your take on it was different than mine, and things seemed to escalate from there on all sides of the discussion. I'm sure we would have gotten to the truck/EV discussion eventually, your post just provided a jumping off point for it  

As to people blaming truck owners for gas prices, that seems like a short sighted  argument meant to incite a reaction and pull people into an argument. As we all know online arguments really don't accomplish anything beyond raising blood pressure and have almost no chance of really changing anyones opinion. 

I do find it interesting how people can form opinions on someone's need for a truck (or any vehicle) based on a few seconds of seeing them on the road. It's a different manifestation of peoples prejudices that in many cases that don't realize they have and are not able to look beyond. 

People pick the vehicle they have based on a lot of different criteria, and it's their choice. It no different than going to a restaurant, where people order what satisfies their cravings and fits their budget. Whether or not it's the healthiest choice for them doesn't affect the other diners, and it isn't anyones place to tell them they shouldn't order the steak if that what they like to eat. 

alfadriver said:

Duke said:

In reply to alfadriver :

Considering the bath most of them took in '20 and '21, I don't really blame them.

They all made up 2020 in 2021.  Let alone they all had enough money to survive the pandemic like most other companies were able to.

So you are ok with them making tons of money on your gas bills?   People here are all complaining of paying more at the pump, and to justify that oil companies just don't make enough money is, well, I'm not sure I accept that reason.

Yes, I'm perfectly OK with them making a ton of money.  I sure as hell don't want to be a geologist or roughneck or pipeline mechanic or refinery worker and all the other jobs - including the dreaded, evil upper management - it takes to find, retrieve, and process oil.  I'll gladly pay all those folks to do it for me.

Its all about the pipelines.  From a friend who recently retired from a major pipeline company as a V.P. ( I work in the Upstream part of the business)

Here’s the rest of the story…

There are 3 oil/gas industry “groups” needed to get oil and gas to consumers…Upstream, Midstream and Downstream.

“Upstream” consists of the producers that are responsible for drilling and getting the oil and gas out of the earth and to the surface. “Midstream” consists of the transporters (pipelines) and storage facilities.  And finally, “Downstream” consists of the refiners (refineries) and distribution.

Upstream companies apply for, and are granted, drilling permits by federal and/or state regulators. Today Biden claimed that producer companies have 9000 well permits in hand that could have been drilled, but did not mention “approval,” or the lack thereof, of new pipeline permits.

It has been a nightmare for “Midstream” companies to get new pipelines permitted, where there’s no guarantee of when, or if, permits will be approved, and as we’ve seen with the Keystone pipeline, there’s no guarantee that the government won’t cancel an approved permit, even after the midstream company has spent 10’s or even 100’s of millions of dollars. As a result, investors who provide the capital for midstream expansion projects are reluctant to invest in new projects with such uncertainty.

It’s no wonder why there are un-drilled wells, even those with permits, when there’s uncertainty in the ability to transport the oil/gas to the refineries and distribution networks.

Would you invest your money in a pipeline project knowing that the government may cancel the project and you may lose ALL of your investment as a result?

In reply to Chris_V :

I'm not telling you off. 
 

I'm sharing that your tone and your words sound like an attack, not a discussion.
 

The people on this forum are much more important to me than winning an argument. I apologize if my words sounded like I was telling you off.  It was not my intent.  I was trying to respectfully request you reconsider how you were presenting yourself and treating others. 

alfadriver said:

Duke said:

In reply to alfadriver :

Considering the bath most of them took in '20 and '21, I don't really blame them.

 

They all made up 2020 in 2021.  Let alone they all had enough money to survive the pandemic like most other companies were able to.

So you are ok with them making tons of money on your gas bills?   People here are all complaining of paying more at the pump, and to justify that oil companies just don't make enough money is, well, I'm not sure I accept that reason.  This degree of price rise didn't happen when the West invaded Iraq 20 years ago- who is also a major oil producer.

Again, I don't think you understand how supply and demand work. This price rise is coming off of the extreme drop in demand that Covid caused worldwide. All sorts of commuting and most travel (by car, plane ship) got curtailed heavily. Prices dropped through the floor. Oil companies weren't raking in the profits by keeping gas prices the same even though oil pricing dropped to negative numbers per barrel. They could have left the price of gas at the pre-pandemic levels and made a pile of money and no one would have complained about the cost of gas. But it doesn't work that way.

This rapid price increase is due simply to the fact that Covid based travel restrictions and fears went away, and huge numbers of people started commuting and traveling again (by car, truck, plane and ship. I was just on a cruise to the Bahamas last week and there were 7 giant cruise ships in port at Nassau at the same time). That increased demand quite rapidly and to fairly high levels compared to the last two years. Refineries were not back online yet (and in many cases were still shuttered due to ultra cold weather over the last few months) and production hasn't had time to ramp back up to meet that demand and stabilize pricing. So the demand WAY outstripped supply, which has sent the speculative price of oil sky high. Add to that the timing of the Russian invasion and you get global unrest at the same time as that spike in demand and thus the current oil pricing.

But as is always said, the greatest cure for high oil prices is high oil prices. A higher cost per barrel makes alternative energy more palatable, AND makes getting to the harder to reach oil more cost effective. Both of which increase supply and reduce demand, which will bring the price of oil back down again, and with it gas prices.

I'm no economist, or expert in any field.  But i can offer real life results.  We are a retired couple, on a fixed income. (We also prepared for our retirement years, by the way.)  I never anticipated the rise in living costs, like this.  I own a number of petrol powered vehicles, gas and diesel.  My choice.  None of them would be considered economy style vehicles. Again, my choice.  I enjoy them.  But, look at it as a water bucket with a leak. Leak being living expenses. If the leak is made bigger by circumstances beyond your control, you (me) can not fill it fast enough to compensate.  And yes, Electric energy has spiked too, my NYSEG bill shows me that, and we try not to be wasteful.  I don't have any answers, but we worked hard all our working lives to live comfortably in our latter years.  This thread should not be a pissing match.  I feel it should be more of a conveyance of our feelings on sticker shock.

In reply to jharry3 :

Thanks for your well constructed perspective of the industry.  Much appreciated.

In reply to Dirtydog (Forum Supporter) :

I guess I understand some feel this thread was created to be simply a complaint box. 

I dropped in a few posts to try and directly combat that concept. The gas prices are not too far off expected due to existing economic history. 

Then again I appreciate your post as it helped me see the point of the OP was to express and share concerns and shock. I am out. 

Edit: no sarcasm intended, I value the community need to share things, including concerns about gas prices. I shouldn't stand in the way of that. 

In reply to Chris_V :

The recent spike is from the war, right?  Has there actually been a reduction in supply in the last week prior to us not importing russian oil?  Not that we imported much anyway.

Demand is ahead of supply, sure.  but the recent jump seems to be far more oil companies taking advantage of a crisis to pad their pockets.  For sure, they are far, far, far from suffering.  We will see in the next quarterly report.  Again, I don't recall this happening when the West invaded an oil producing country 20 years ago.

Duke said:

alfadriver said:

Duke said:

In reply to alfadriver :

Considering the bath most of them took in '20 and '21, I don't really blame them.

They all made up 2020 in 2021.  Let alone they all had enough money to survive the pandemic like most other companies were able to.

So you are ok with them making tons of money on your gas bills?   People here are all complaining of paying more at the pump, and to justify that oil companies just don't make enough money is, well, I'm not sure I accept that reason.

Yes, I'm perfectly OK with them making a ton of money.  I sure as hell don't want to be a geologist or roughneck or pipeline mechanic or refinery worker and all the other jobs - including the dreaded, evil upper management - it takes to find, retrieve, and process oil.  I'll gladly pay all those folks to do it for me.

 

If this recent windfall actually went to the real workers, sure.  But that's not how corporate profits have worked since the 90s.  The amount of bonuses from the VP level and up may be more than the workers- that's how it was in my company until the workforce complained about it.  This is where less than 100 people got more than the rest of the company combined.  Even then, the average bonus is ~ 100x less than the top level.  I wish I could make my annual salary in bonuses....

In reply to jharry3 :

Pipelines are definitely an issue in this country, regardless of the type.  And it's even harder in the more populated areas with less open land. I'm mainly familiar with the pipelines through PA and NJ, which have been heavily contested.  A lot of fear, NIMBYism and poor communication on all sides. But the need for fossil fuels is not going away anytime soon, no matter how much we may want it to. The NIMBYs need to understand that. But at the same time, there have been a few instances where the pipeline folks could have done better as well. 

Do I want higher gas prices? No. I don't, but I can accept some of the reasons why.  While a few more $ at the pump doesn't affect me very much, I know it affects others a great deal. 

No easy solutions... 

Chris_V said:

STM317 said:

This is all an issue with energy prices, not specifically gasoline. A very large part of electricity generation in the developed world comes from burning various fossil fuels (some cleaner than others, but still...). The same fossil fuels that we burn in our transportation and manufacturing processes. The prices of these fuels are interconnected, so when oil/gas prices rise due to market speculation, demand for coal rises and increases the price of that fossil fuel. Charging your EV will likely cost more because the fuel used by your utility company probably costs more. Things that use energy intensive processes to manufacture will go up. Shipping will increase.

This is often mitigated by the fact that as you charge an EV overnight, it (along with others doing that) actually make the power plants more efficient, reducing costs. As we transition away from coal (it's now under 19% of energy production) the fluctuations in pricing drop off, as well. As you mentioned, increasing alternative sources of generation increase stability and keep prices from fluctuating (solar and wind have not fluctuated at all, even with this Ukrainian problem), as does regulation in most parts of the country (where pricing is regulated to not change by more than a couple percent over time).

The best way to mitigate these impacts is to reduce consumption however you can and transition as much as possible away from fossil fuels. This benefits on a national scale and an individual scale. With enough renewable energy production, a nation doesn't have to rely on shady countries or global cartels to keep the lights on or stay warm in winter. And they don't have to choose between using a limited resource to fuel vehicles or make things like steel. It's better for national security and the environment at the same time.

Yup. Especially for national security. How we let a major national security commodity become publicly traded and at the mercy of global speculators is beyond me. All through the 1950s, 60s and 70s US Presidents exercised controls over prices. There’s a law authorizing it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Stabilization_Act_of_1970  Unfortunately for some people, that reeks of socialism. Even as they complain about the free market economy hurting their wallets.

 

 

Coal usage in the US was expected to increase in 2021, while NG decreased due to higher prices. It's too early to tell what 2022 might bring, but NG prices certainly aren't going down so far:

If you're advocating for price controls on fuel or consumer goods, the last time that was done (Nixon) it resulted in a decade of stagflation, followed by a decade of super high interest rates. I'm not sure anybody wants to go down that road again.

bobzilla said:

yupididit said:

In reply to bobzilla :

Get a bigger truck. Lol

I don't need a truck to feel "manly". Or any vehicle. I race a berkeleying Rio. I don't need to prove my manhood every thirty seconds. We have the truck that suits our needs best. But there will still be those bemoaning we even have a truck because "we can just go rent one" when we need it. Except ours has been paid off for over 10 years. 
 

whatever. I'm done with the finger pointing and bullE36 M3. Wanna blame people with trucks fine. I'll blame people with electric cars for my electric bill spiking. No one wins with this game. 

Sir, it was a joke. I have an Expedition and if it wasn't for working from home I'd be commuting in it. And before that I had a diesel Excursion and before that a diesel F250. I am the person who has a 1/2 -3/4 ton that I only tow with a few times a year lol. I'm the guy they say don't need a truck. But, I don't take it personally because it ain't no one's business but my own. You might want to do the same. 

If you don't want to feel manly, get a Miata 

In reply to No Time :

I think everyone took it as a joke except Bob.

I do get tired of people who travel by private jet complain about the carbon footprint of my old Dodge Motorhome.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

I do get tired of people who travel by private jet complain about the carbon footprint of my old Dodge Motorhome.

Or when a government motorcade rolls by with deleted diesel trucks and all you hear about is the EPA cracking down on deleted diesels.

Chris_V said:

bobzilla said:

 

I wish someone would tell our local electric companies that they aren't raising costs, because we are seeing it in the monthly statement. Unless I am makin that up too. 

Have your electrical costs per kWh gone up over 300 percent in the last two months due to global increases in demand and global decreases in supply? 

Yeah, my overall electric and nat gas bill have doubled year over year.  This is before the current political issues.  Freaking annoying.

Sports cars and race cars are even more useless than trucks. 

What??!!  Nonsense!  Ban this guy. :)