Sub-$1000 Challenge Cars

In reply to GTXVette:

Right.

No one would sell the cars because they invest thousands of dollars of labor.

Claimer rules favor the claimer, who is just trying to steal the efforts of someone else. They don't prove anything other than people can bring cheap crap.

I've reviewed a lot of build books on top contenders. As far as I am concerned, they are legit.

I am bringing a top contender this year. I am not looking to participate, I am looking to win. I am intimately familiar with the car's budget, and it is completely clean. But there is no chance I would sell it to you for $2000. If there was a claimer rule, I would not bring it. I'd bring crap.

In reply to SVreX:

I agree with you. It's not about the cars being worth $2015, its about what the budget is.

My WRX fixed up is worth way more than the money I will put into it and way more than $2015.

Most of the cars in the challenge clearly have hundreds of hours of work put into them. That is the value is.

VWguyBruce wrote: I was dwelling on this today at work, all day. This and a few other $300-600 posts. http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/5087086261.html

Geez....you southern guys have it so easy.Anything up here (Michigan) that cheap comes with lots of ventilation holes in the body.

Junkyard cars offer great potential at a really modest buy-in price. The trick I believe is to pick ones with enough superficial damage to total them in the insurance industries' eyes.

Engine fires for example seldom ruin the actual engine but destroy fuel injection and ignition. A similar year car that is damaged to the point of being only worthy of being crushed will yield the required parts for nothing lost in weight (just toss the ruined injection parts into the to be crushed car's trunk) In reply to TIGMOTORSPORTS:

GTXVette wrote: In reply to SVreX:I see 3 Venues I Must Win To Win. Appearance, Engine, Suspension. I read that 3020ish dollars can be used in trade's swap's and Dinero. I won't come if I can't win 2 out of 3. So I Like Your Attitude. If This Car Get's Done, Well I got Plenty Of That! so what else Do I not See that Would Derail my plan.

You might be over-simplifying it a bit.

In the last 11 years that I have gone, I only remember 2 cars winning 2 out of three (and 1 of them did not win overall). The actual scoring method makes the strategies to win a little more nuanced than that.

You said "Appearance, Engine, and Suspension". I am assuming you are referring to the Concourse, the drag strip, and the autocross. But that really does oversimplify it.

Successful drag cars need a particular suspension, which is very different from what works well on the autocross. Whatever you build, it will be a compromise. Winning the Challenge is about making wise decisions with your compromises.

The fastest 1/4 mile cars that have been to the Challenge often struggle with the autocross because they are over-powered, yet the fastest autocrossers are rarely the top finishing drag cars. Again, compromise.

And the Concourse is NOT about appearance. If you come thinking that, you will be frustrated and disappointed. Frequently cars that are not as pretty earn better scores than ones that are because they have a better story. It's a little hard for people to understand sometimes, but again, its about the choices you make.

In my case, I don't expect wins in 2 different categories. But I know what the car is good at, and I know exactly what score I need in all 3 categories to be a contender.

There are a lot of formulas that can lead to a win.

Look at some of the nuances of $2014

1st Overall: Ed Malle Mustang
2nd in Autox, 2nd in Drag, 2nd in Concourse

2nd Overall: Team Gutty Civic (Subaru)
1st in Autox, 1st in Concourse

3rd Overall: Andy Nelson Sunbird
1st in Drag, 3rd in Concourse

So, take Team Gutty; winning two categories does not assure you an Overall win.

JohnRW1621 wrote: Look at some of the nuances of $2014 1st Overall: Ed Malle Mustang 2nd in Autox, 2nd in Drag, 2nd in Concourse 2nd Overall: Team Gutty Civic (Subaru) 1st in Autox, 1st in Concourse 3rd Overall: Andy Nelson Sunbird 1st in Drag, 3rd in Concourse So, take Team Gutty; winning two categories does not assure you an Overall win.

Right.

To take that a little further...

• All three of them scored very well in the concourse. In fact, the top 6 finishing cars were also the top 6 Concourse cars. Don't overlook it's importance.

• The 11 fastest (dynamic) cars were the top 11 overall finishes. It is not as relevant if you drag race fast, or autocross fast. Only that they are fast combined.

• Andrew Nelson was 4 full seconds off the lead in the autocross but drag races well, so his dynamic score was high.

• Pretty much all of the top 10 were within 3 seconds of the top autocross time (except Andrew).

• Only 4 cars did better than a 13 second 1/4 mile.

• 2 cars made the top 10 dynamic time with 15 second drag passes. 2 other cars made it in the 14's.

• The 2014 Camaro did not post a dynamic time good enough to get it in the top 10.

SVreX wrote: - The 2014 Camaro did not post a dynamic time good enough to get it in the top 10.

Wow, I did not realize that

tuna55 wrote:

SVreX wrote: - The 2014 Camaro did not post a dynamic time good enough to get it in the top 10.

Wow, I did not realize that

And that is NOT a $2014 camaro.

Yes it was.

It was a rental car that ran exibition only.

Repeat competitor, TB, could not get his car ready in time but he knew enough to come to the event anyway, by plane. His rental was a Camaro that he ran in exhibition class (with the licence plates removed so as to not be incriminated in photos.)
There was no mention of the Camaro in the magazine. It was typical, classic, "you had to be there moments."

We made him an honorary member of Team Infiniti and gave him the rap name of Q-Baller. I consider him our teams MVP for the weekend for his contributions above and beyond expectations.

I might just do it again this year. It is instructive to have a baseline to compare the real cars against.

I would certainly not choose another camaro, though. The "super sport" moniker doesn't really live up to the hype... comfortable and great at turning tires into smoke but the word that kept coming up was 'unimpressive'.

Over the years there has been a serious shift in the 'spirit of the event' and things have gone totally berkeleying over the top. Success and notoriety involve competing with serious racers, pro teams and fabricators and those willing to devote thousands of hours over several years to the effort of gaming the rules and scrutinizing their budgets. I think there are even cash prizes now so it truly is not a parking lot full of amateurs any longer. Of course, any old regular joe can (and often does) show up and throw down some serious E36 M3 so no reason to be discouraged at all... there are plenty of teaching moments to come from this 'party' (that word is actually important now!) in the future.

Personally I may never actually compete again because it just isn't my cup of tea anymore but I will probably continue to show up and turn wrenches (or play chauffeur) with anyone who will have me. I never once attended to race against anyone else, only set my own personal goals and tried to get there which I think is a totally reasonable way to have fun.

My $.02 : success is a (quickly) moving target that absolutely requires an entry to be significantly more than the sum of its parts... lots of variables and very few concrete formulas

In reply to SVreX:

I meant that a 2014 camaro costs much more than $2014.

rcutclif wrote: In reply to SVreX: I meant that a 2014 camaro costs much more than $2014.

Yes I understand.

It was not an official competitor. But it was a 2014 Camaro, and it's scores were posted on the official final standings list.